by mikepence 66 Replies latest jw friends
Frenchy, what is the connection between there being a God, and a purpose for life? I know I wouldn't have asked that question back when I was a believer in a specific God, but then again, perhaps I wouldn't have asked it because I couldn't have answered it- not with any simple logic.
I ask this because your statement seems to indicate that the two are so closely linked that establishing one (the existence of God), provides the other (the purpose of life). How so?
WOWSERS! I am shocked by Frenchy's comments. Just suppose for a sec that is how people view atheists...
Okay seconds up! lol that is just incredible to think about. Yep, still shocked.
wendy
When I leave, you will know I have been here
Six:
If there is no God, (no creator) then all of this around us is the culmination of a series of accidents. Accidents are, by definition, not purposeful. What purpose would you assign to something that accidentally results from chaos?
Abaddon:
Thank you again for your observations. You said, in part: “There may be no 'reason' why there is life, but that is different from life not having any purpose. “ That is something that I cannot agree with. To me, no reason is no purpose.
I’m still at a loss at your meaning of spirituality. If you are saying that you are looking for something beyond the physical world (I think that appreciation falls into that category) then I would view that as the beginning of a search for God. (Don’t get mad, I’m not accusing you of that! LOL)
“I suppose I say 'live life with passion', and many theists say 'live life in such a way that you will experience the passion'.” I can understand that. I cannot say either that a person cannot be happy without purpose. (Hey, I have a brother-in-law that’s content to do nothing but sponge on others and contribute nothing to society and he’s plenty happy about that! LOL!) Seriously, though, I do not view atheists as being unhappy in general. For me, however, no reason translates into no purpose and what I see around me is far too marvelous to be an accident.
I guess I’m preaching now so I’ll stop that. I did not intend to debate the existence of God but just to show how one who believes is prone to look at non-believers and himself as well. Thank you again for your participation.
Frenchy, you said:
If there is no God, (no creator) then all of this around us is the culmination of a series of accidents. Accidents are, by definition, not purposeful.
That really doesn't adress by question. My question is "how does there being a God give purpose to man's life?" Don't get me wrong, I understand how someone can take their belief in God, assign beliefs as to what God purposes are, and run with it, viola - purpose! The problem is, God, if he/she/it exist, hasn't communicated his thoughts on the matter.
The fact that if all life comes from chance there is no inherent, "designed purpose" to life, is not really relevant to the question of whether or not God's existance automatically provides a definable "purpose" to life. You seem to think it does provide a purpose for life? I want to know why, and what that purpose is, and how you came to that conclusion.
You asked,
What purpose would you assign to something that accidentally results from chaos?...to which I'll respond by quoting some things from Dear Abby-don on this very thread. He expresses it better than I do.
:I mean that if there is no reason for being here, no god, no ineffable plan, we can make our lives have a purpose by leading useful lives suffused with as much happiness as we can cram in.
There may be no 'reason' why there is life, but that is different from life not having any purpose. It is there, and it can be used to good effect even if there's no 'reason' behind it.
And this, which I don't think can be over emphasized:
...knowing we are reacting on a subconcious level to our evolutionary programming doesn't make it less wonderful, does it? And don't forget, not only do we know, we know we know, which gives us the power to transform and assign values completely removed from the mundane.
Hi tess,
I am very happy for you,that you have found peace.
My point is let others find theirs,on their own. I have peace as well,and the height of tolerance would be to realize it doesn't come from just the judeo-christian path.
I wouldn't talk about Mike's agenda as yours is clearly to pull others to your particular christian slant/view.
There are some very balanced christians on board here. Andi and yeru come to mind. They seem to be confident and sure in their belief,so much so,they dont need to preach to anyone. That's where you differ.
There are lots of folk,non-beleivers here of high moral standards,inner peace. You won't notice it because it doesn't mesh w/ your definition of peace. Tina
Vive Bene
Spesso L'amore
Di Risata Molto!!!
It seems as if you think you are somehow superior to your son and his wife in the few posts that we've exchanged barbs on. I don't know how you behave toward them, but if you are browbeating them because they have found God you should let them be who they want to be. No offense, but it seems as if you and Princess have both 'copped an attitude' toward them. If I am wrong, I am sorry. As far as them 'witnessing to you', they are trying to show you what they have found to be truth, not the 'truth' as 'dubs say, but a real, personal relationship with God. Why not respect their choice instead of stabbing them in the back here? For the rest of the gang here: they need to know (as I have said before) that despite outward appearances, the protestant Christian faith is real faith and not some counterfeit like the Watchtower religion. We don't even worship the same 'god'.
Rex
Six:
Your question was: “Frenchy, what is the connection between there being a God, and a purpose for life?” Because without a creator there can be no purpose or reason for life. Might there be a God and still no purpose in life? Possibly. But it is not possible for there to be purpose where no intent ever existed.
As for life being it’s own purpose, the reasoning is quite circular. The words ‘intend’ and ‘aim’ are commonly used in the definition of the word ‘purpose’ and the definitions of the word show that a goal or destination is being sought and pursued. Synonyms include: Design, end, objective, intention. All of that strongly suggests an intelligence behind it. If the purpose of life is life, then it has no purpose once life is achieved. There is nothing to do with that life if it, itself is the end goal. No, that doesn’t fly at all.
Even things which ‘happen by themselves’ are things which occur within a framework which already exists. We often refer to the forces at work around us as ‘law’’, i.e., the law of gravity, the law of inertia, etc. This has the connotation of purpose and intent, of orderliness and forethought. You will find that present in virtually all aspects of life.
” There may be no 'reason' why there is life, but that is different from life not having any purpose. It is there, and it can be used to good effect even if there's no 'reason' behind it. “
Without ‘reason’ there can be no ‘good’ or ‘bad’. Reason is required to be able to say that something is good or bad. Some have objected to my questioning a purpose for life in the absence of God but no one has yet answered the question of: What can be the purpose of life is life was not purposefully created?
...knowing we are reacting on a subconcious level to our evolutionary programming doesn't make it less wonderful, does it? If this marvelous mechanism came about by accident with no intent or reason or purpose behind it, then it is just that, without purpose. It’s like a clock with no hands or a radio without a speaker. It just functions, that’s all.
: “, we know we know, which gives us the power to transform and assign values completely removed from the mundane. “
We think we know. What do we really know?
Abaddon:
How do you think he's gonna react?
Hopefully not by turning his reaction to an isolated case into a bizarre absolute.
Seeker:
I want to know why, and what that purpose is, and how you came to that conclusion.
Robert Duvall to his college class, in "A Civil Action":
"Never... NEVER ask the witness 'Why?' on the witness stand."
Mike:
Enjoyed reading your last post in this thread. Good answer, man! Cool.
COMF
Interesting to me, the way you think about this Frenchy. That is, if I have it right.
It seems to me that when most people question "what is the purpose of life?" they are asking from a human standpoint. You seem to only even be asking from a creator's standpoint, ie. "what is God's purpose for us?" It isn't that I don't find it a valid question, but I don't agree that w/o a creator there can be no purpose. That is just narrowing the word "purpose" down a bit to much for reason, imo.
I'll admit to having struggled when a friend, in dire emotional pain, fairly begged me to help him understand the "meaning of life". In the end though, it didnt' matter, 'cause what he neaded was medication and therapy, not platitudes. I've been there, I know.
You ask: "What can be the purpose of life if life was not purposefully created?" I guess "just about whatever the hell we want it to be" would be an easy answer. But maybe we all should take such a narrow construct for the word "purpose". In which case, it is a silly question for athiest and agnostics, and really only valuable for believers to the extent that they have some inside knowledge of "Gods" purpose.
I just don't see any of the "holy writings" having a credible shot at revealing Gods purpose. Now nature, it speaks pretty loudly and consistantly, so if one believes in God, that is where they should focus their energies in getting to know God, IMO. After all, even atheist won't argue the lessons learned from nature.
We have life, but we don't create life, so it isn't up to us to give it purpose in the sense of creating something for a purpose. Yet some would argue effectively that we create our lives if not our life, and therefore we give it purpose, but again, you gotta widen the scope of the word "purpose" to do that. I think most people do include our own self-direction when they speak of "the purpose of life".
It’s like a clock with no hands or a radio without a speaker. It just functions, that’s all.Now that's not a very charitable view of Abbadon!
If the purpose of life is life, then it has no purpose once life is achieved.C'mon, the point was not life, but living, at least from a philosophical bent. Now at the end of that life..., yeah, big questions. But that is another topic altogether.
Then do me a favor next time, just email me.
I understand you are trying to leave teh Wt and there will be issues every XJW has to work though.
If you gave the club a chance you might have liked it. There are some members who I know have different view point an opinions. I know who lifestyles are not "Christian" but they are memebers and accepted. I know God has to let them work out thoer issues. Some are going to take longer than others. I find the longer a person has been exposed to the Organization, the longer it takes for the person to heal.
I only heald a few simple rules to keep the peace:
1) nobody is allowed to promote one denomiation over another. Even though it is a Christian based Club, I don't permit that a one denomiation of Christian faith is true and another is false. I feel the members have to find thier own path in thier walk with Jesus.
2) no personal assult on any member.
3)A link must be claerly marked. Many use link form other denominational websites. I just ask they are posted so a memeber can
choose whether they want to go there.
4) all adult profiles must be marked adult.
5) no Wt bashing. There are enough club, groups and boards which do.
My goal is to help the XJW heal and show the realpower of the gospel of Jesus. One day you may be able to forgive Jehovah's Witnesses.
It is a very well moderated board.
I just don't permit WT bashing. It defeats the purpose and just keeps the XJW where they are in anger. I never seen an XJW who reamins in an angry state after a period of "Mourning" the loss of no longer accepted by the Watchtower. If the XJW does not get over the anger then you allow the Watcthower to have more power over your life than when you were in the Organization.
I feel the greatset power and Wintess for Jesus is when an XJW not only accepts Christ but to move and live life everyday.
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