Worship God? Please explain......

by AK - Jeff 30 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Chalam

  Hi Satanus,

  Why would the loss of one ant piss him off

  Well back to the analogy of my kids, I don't have an infinite number but to loose one or both certainly would more than piss me off.

  God doesn't want to loose any of His kids, He loves they dearly too, but children can be so stubborn at times and no-one wants a dictatorship.

  So God says "My way is best, I know what I am doing, I made you and everything around you, I love you, please choose it."

  If the bible is true what He says about Hell (I say it is) then the better option is certainly more than worthwhile investigating, but we each have to decide.

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  AK - Jeff

  But, Chalam, why would he insist on this?

  Part of the problem is the definition of worship. Certainly, at least in this part of the realm, religious people don't equate 'respect' with 'worship'. Worship occupies a much higher rung on that ladder.

  While I can understand the 'Father of all things' expecting respect, I don't understand him expecting worship. Are you meaning that he knows it is best for us to worship him? What about the perverted styles of worship? The Mayan's cut out men's hearts while they were still alive. Radical Muslims strap explosives to their bodies [or that of their children] and set them off to kill others. Some isolate themselves in igloos, or huts or monasteries in the jungle. Some cut and torture themselves. All of this is done in an effort to appease God through worship.

  Granted - most worshipers don't go to such extremes - but would God not have been more loving to have stated " Look. I am complete. I made you in love. Now, go, live life. Rejoice. Acknowledge me, but don't bow in reverence to me. I have no need of that. Live a good life. Respect me that is all I ask of those I have made"

  Jeff
• 

  Satanus

  One of your kids going off and living a healthey, productive life would piss you off? Isn't that a bit codependent? Wouldn't that rather make a parent glad, tell the parent that he did a good job in making the kid and raising him well? Of course, you could always visit the kid. Thing is, god has hidden himself. No visits in any meaningful way. Yet, people like you insist that we must at the least respect this hiding god. The good book tells us that we must worship him, and him only. Sounds like a totally one way street. I'm sure that you are a better parent to your kids, even if they went off, than is this hidden god to earth's inhabitants.

  S
• 

  Chalam

  Hi Jeff & Satanus,

  I will try and answer your questions.

  Jeff I agree about respect vs. worship and that is the difference in the analogy of an earthly and Heavenly father. I think worship should be reserved for God as He is higher up the ladder. The thing that springs to mind in worship is humility, after all, we are mortal men and He is God, all powerful, all knowing and ever present.

  The perverted forms of worship you mentioned are reserved for false gods. Even the bible agrees.

  1 Kings 18:26-28 (New Century Version)

  26 So they took the bull that was given to them and prepared it. They prayed to Baal from morning until noon, shouting "Baal, answer us!" But there was no sound, and no one answered. They danced around the altar they had built.

  27 At noon Elijah began to make fun of them. "Pray louder!" he said. "If Baal really is a god, maybe he is thinking, or busy, or traveling! Maybe he is sleeping so you will have to wake him!" 28 The prophets prayed louder, cutting themselves with swords and spears until their blood flowed, which was the way they worshiped.

  Satanus, our Heavenly Father is happy that we go off and live healthy and productive lives. In fact it was the first thing He told us to do.

  Genesis 1:28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

  However, the total independence thing suggests we don't need God any more. However, I believe we do, see what Paul says about Jesus.

  Hebrews 1:3 (English Standard Version)

  3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.

  Plus we have the predicament of a justice with regard to our sin and Jesus wants sort that out too. I am sure you are not happy about that belief Satanus-I think possible we spoke about it before?

  Anyhow, I understand your point of view. I used to feel like that. Why did God create us if He knew we would get in this predicament. That said I am over it now. After all, who am I to tell God what to do?

  I am going to watch this sometime. Mark has a good way of explaining things so it might help us all in this discussion. Check it out if you really want some easy to follow input on the subject.

  What is Worship?

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  AK - Jeff

  Respectfully, Stephen, the Bible's point of view about worship is precisely what I question here. So, quoting it in defense is a bit empty to me.

  I worshipped God for many decades as a Jw. Yet he never bothered to explain that I was wasting my life in futile cultish fashion. He ignored my desire to 'worship in spirit and truth'. He allowed me to mock all other worshippers as 'false'. He refused to answer my prayers in the most crushing moments of my life.

  If he paid no particular attention to me, on what basis can he demand that I bow to him?

  On the other hand - what proof can you present that the acts of the Mayan's were to 'false Gods'? Perhaps they are worshipping the true God after all? The God they claimed to worship was no less bloodthirsty than the God of the OT - the self-same God who demands 'worship' from Christians. Who is to say that the Buddhist monks in the mountains of Asia are worshipping a 'false God'? OR that those who practice flagellation are worshipping the wrong God? After all, ants who are mostly ignored [if not entirely ignored] by the Godlike humans who tower over them have no idea which one should be called 'True' and which one should be labeled 'false' do they? All are willing it seems to burn them for pleasure and ignore and laugh at their fates as they stumble through life.

  So while the Bible says - in essence - "only worship the God of this book, for this book is the right book, and you are the right worshippers", what proof is that of anything.

  Still the questions begs - Worship God? Which one? And why does God demand that? Or does he?

  Jeff
• 

  Chalam

  Hi Jeff,

  Thanks for the post. OK, here goes.

  Respectfully, Stephen, the Bible's point of view about worship is precisely what I question here. So, quoting it in defense is a bit empty to me.

  It depends on your view of the bible? Personally I believe the bible and the God it talks about. So to me, what it says is important. I understand there are other gods and other forms of worship but personally, none of them float my boat any more.

  I worshipped God for many decades as a Jw. Yet he never bothered to explain that I was wasting my life in futile cultish fashion. He ignored my desire to 'worship in spiritand truth'. He allowed me to mock all other worshippers as 'false'. He refused to answer my prayers in the most crushing moments of my life.

  My belief is that you worshipped another god to mine. If the core WT doctrine is totally different to what I believe. No JW believes that Jesus is God and worships Him. They worship "jehovah" god and like to call him that, not "Father" like Jesus told us to.

  If he paid no particular attention to me, on what basis can he demand that I bow to him?

  Well it isn't a demand. That would be a dictatorship. I am sure "jehovah" of the WT makes many demands, field service, dressing right, etc. All acts of worship. It is about how one spends one's time, money, energy etc. It is not about just singing a few songs on Sunday. BTW have you watched the video yet? I have downloaded it here. I am sure it is going to be good and help us here.

  On the other hand - what proof can you present that the acts of the Mayan's were to 'false Gods'? Perhaps they are worshipping the true God after all? The God they claimed to worship was no less bloodthirsty than the God of the OT - the self-same God who demands 'worship' from Christians. Who is to say that the Buddhist monks in the mountains of Asia are worshipping a 'false God'? OR that those who practice flagellation are worshipping the wrong God? After all, ants who are mostly ignored [if not entirely ignored] by the Godlike humans who tower over them have no idea which one should be called 'True' and which one should be labeled 'false' do they? All are willing it seems to burn them for pleasure and ignore and laugh at their fates as they stumble through life.

  Everyone is always demand "proof"! Forgive me but obviously God isn't showing "proof" as so many want and why? He wants faith, that's just how it is and we can't force His hand. However, exercise even a tiny bit of faith and He responds. Ask Him what you want! If you truly are seeking Him then I guarantee He will respond. All I can say it that it most likely won't be how you expect.

  So while the Bible says - in essence - "only worship the God of this book, for this book is the right book, and you are the right worshippers", what proof is that of anything.

  Well we all have to make our choices, our gods and worship them-there are plenty of overt ones to choose from or those more subtle. Plenty of people worshipping self, money, sex, drugs, power, religion out there etc. Like I said, I feel I have tried the rest and know these days I have the one true God. Nothing else comes close!

  Still the questions begs - Worship God? Which one? And why does God demand that? Or does he?

  You beat me to it! I couldn't agree more.

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  Satanus

  However, the total independence thing suggests we don't need God any more. However, I believe we do,'

  It's purely an opinion. What exactly has your god done for us during the last 500 yrs, that we could not have done without?

  'Plus we have the predicament of a justice with regard to our sin and Jesus wants sort that out too.'

  That is only a theoretical, or rather, a theological predicament in the minds of those who believe it. As well, what has jesus done to solve the 'sin' problem during the last 500 yrs? Graned, there are many fine, caring christians. However, one doesn't need to be christian to care about others. If the idea that jesus died for them, and thus removed the guilt that people feel before god, god for them. However, the sin/imperfection/worthy of death idea comes from the same place. If one doesn't subscribe to sin and guilt in the first place, then one doesn't need the solution to it. Other than that, the story about jesus does have some attractive qualities and some spiritual truths. He certainly felt no guilt or sin. It was paul who brought in guilt and church and whatnot.

  S
• 

  Chalam

  Hi Satanus,

  What exactly has your god done for us during the last 500 yrs, that we could not have done without?

  As I said, I believe the bible. So I'd say everything good that has happened in the last 500 years is because of a good God. But as you say, for sure, it's purely an opinion.

  That is only a theoretical, or rather, a theological predicament in the minds of those who believe it.

  I'd agree in the sense that our faith won't ultimately be proved or disproved until death comes or Christ returns, whichever is the sooner. If there is nothing after death they you can tell me "see I told you so".

  Other than that, the story about jesus does have some attractive qualities and some spiritual truths.

  Well Jesus said He is THE way, THE truth and THE life. Basically He is saying He has all the spiritual truth and He is the only place to find it i.e. quite conceited unless of course Jesus was God, which He is IMHO.

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  Satanus

  'If there is nothing after death they you can tell me "see I told you so".'

  Actually, i DO believe in an afterlife.

  'Well Jesus said He is THE way, THE truth and THE life. Basically He is saying He has all the spiritual truth and He is the only place to find it i.e. quite conceited unless of course Jesus was God, which He is IMHO.'

  Actually, i feel on par w jesus. As a pantheist, yes, i am god, too. Jesus showed a way, free of al those ot rules, a spiritual path of freedom. Paul enslaved jesus' followers, once again. Anyhow, in the WAY of jesus, the one who is on the way, does not need jesus, once he is on the way. Once one has had the experience, all books can be burnt. Books and religion are for seekers. Once one has found, they are not needed. It's why jesus didn't need the mosaic rules of the pharisees.

  S
• 

  AK - Jeff

  Thanx for this conversation. It has been interesting.

  My agnosticism grows through such discourse. I cannot blindly accept a God who won't speak, nor a book that supports such God thru borrowed fable and dogmatic insistence on 'faith' without evidence.

  One poster put it this way in another thread some years back - "There is no more evidence to support the Bible God, than there is to support the Flying Spagetti God". Or essence.

  I recall a time, when I was very much 'Christian' [or so I thought at least], when massive trial overcame me. I begged God to answer just a single prayer - and I had asked for very little outside of this prayer in decades of 'service' to Him - there was no answer, no help in time of trial. My only child had turned to drugs, lies, deception, hatred, gangs, and was at that moment gone, having run away for what would prove to be the first of 18 times. I asked only that I would know that she was safe, and that I would find the wisdom to prevent her from totally ruining her life.

  I never got an answer. Now - some 16 years later - I still have never gotten an answer. She has abandoned her three lovely children here, leaving them for us to rear. She has violated the law continually, and likely will spend many more years in prison soon. She refuses to speak to her mother or I, nor show any appreciation for the tremendous responsibilites that we have assumed in her behalf. We have not heard from her at all in six months.

  No - God does not seem interested in me. And the complete inablity of his followers to logically support the Bible, or even his existence, is changing me. I cannot find any reason to 'worship' this unknown and unknowable God. I, like many, believe there is something greater than man - though I am unable to define it. I can't find support in the Bible or the Quaran to worship those Gods represented. In many ways I harken back to my ancestors [at least part of them] who worshiped the 'Great Spirit'. They defined God in nature, in what they saw and tasted. I am close to that perhaps.

  But 'worshipful adoration'? No - can't see it anymore. At least not now.

  And the best the Christian/Judaic worshipers will say of that, is that I have failed the test of faith. To me, God has failed the test of his love for me that his followers so widely proclaim as his predominant quality.

  Jeff