Does a Cult Background Assist Atheists?

by Perry 57 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  beksbks

  If I had been raised in a middle of the road vanilla church, I most likely would have drifted away and left it at that. Instead I explored the whole notion. I found there was no more to god, than an invention by man. If I had never considered the subject, I would have said I am not affiliated. Instead, I am an atheist.
• 

  Perry

  Sorry to be gone so long guys. I went to a Navy retirement ceremony yesterday afternoon on a military base. My good friend retired after 24 years of service. He is an immigrant to this country. He had an amazing career a had metals hanging all over his jacket. His 18 year old son recently joined the Navy. More than that, he is in training as a Navy SEAL. A position that will guarantee "action" and much danger.

  There was a lot of pagentry; but the most touching part was when his 18 yr. old son officially relieved his father of duty. It illustrated how one generation of service had ended and another generation was beginning. Tears were flowing among the 200 + attendees. Pablo gave all of the credit for his military and personal success to Jesus Christ more than once during the ceremony. His service to God and country is impressive. We all missed so much as witnesses.

  Carry on sailors!
• 

  Perry

  I sold my e-commerce company several months back before the recession hit and started a new company that requires travel to stores that I partner with. My new position requires travel to stores in towns in a 200 mile radius from where I live about twice a month. I work Wed. - Sat.

  This schedule affords me the perfect opportunity to pop in on Wed and Sat morning to the local Kingdon Hall as the group is heading out around 9:30.

  I always enjoy the reference they make to me as "brother" as I walk toward the elder or ms who is leading the group. Grins quickly fade as I explain that my wife and I became Christians a few years ago and wondered if they wouldn't mind answering a few bible questions for me/us. The answer is usually a reluctant yes. One elder actually declined, saying that he needed to go out in service. I quickly explained that the purpose of his service was to meet people like us was it not? He seemed a little confused by that logic. Anyway.

  I usually point out that we are having a hard time figuring out how JW's have their sins forgiven. I tell them that I understand what happened to sin under the old testament agreement:

  And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: - Levet:16:21

  And the Levites shall lay their hands upon the heads of the bullocks: and thou shalt offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering, unto the LORD, to make an atonement for the Levites. - Numbers 8:12

  I know for a fact that this is a new thought for JW's. We were taught that the sacrifices were for a 'sweet smelling odor". I expalin how I understand that the sins of first the priest and then the sinner was put upon the head of the goat/bull. And then when the animal is killed, it sufferes the death penalty FOR (in place of) the morally guilty. (The animal being incapable of morality and thus innocent) Thus the death penalty was carried out according to the LAW.

  I then explaing that we are concerned that JW's sins are not forgiven since they are (a.) outside of the New Covenant and (b.) Jesus is not their Mediator.

  Without fail the JW asserts that Jesus is their Mediator. I then show them the following quote:

  The February 15, 1991 issue of the Watchtower, pgs. 15-20 paragraph 11; makes this announcement:

  11 Nevertheless, in a preliminary way, the great crowd have already “washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” (Revelation 7:14) Christ does not act as Mediator of the new covenant toward them, yet they benefit from this covenant through the work of God’s Kingdom.

  If they are not an elder they always deny the authenticity of this statement. Elders seem to know otherwise, that it is genuine. I usually have to explain that it makes sense that Jesus is not their Mediator because the JW is outside of the New Covenant that carries the value of his sinless blood.... rejecting the emblems at the Memorial illustrates this fact. Once they make this connection they usually get quiet.

  At this point, I explain that I really only have one question for JW's; Can you show me from your bible how your sins are forgiven outside of the New Covenant and without Jesus as your Mediator?

  As you can imagine the Reasoning book comes out, to no avail. The JW seems baffled and asserts that they know that their sins are forgiven. However, I always point out that they are unable to show me something from the bible that would support this. On almost EVERY occassion they want to go check with their elders, do some research etc . Elders will usually start trying to control the conversation with red-herrings about the Trinity etc.

  The witness honestly believes that he has some kind of an agreement with God to avoid Judgment, although there is ZERO evidence in the bible to show a salvation outside of the New Covenant and without Jesus as YOUR Mediator. Many will tell me that it too hard to explain. One sister told me that it took her many months to understand it when she started studying. All, will assert that basically although they don't understand it, they know that others do understand it and could explain it better than they can.

  It is very sad. I am very polite, thank them for their time, and leave. I pray God's mercy on them as I walk away.
• 

  Perry

  Witnesses believe two opposed ideas. One that there is salvation outside of the N.C. and without Jesus as Mediator, but they also know that there are no scriptures to support this conclusion.

  Fast forward to Atheists: Atheists "believe" that there is no God, yet also "know" that the cosmological constants necessary for the existence of anything requires a belief in the impossibility as well.

  Consider:

  The constants of the laws of physics have been finely tuned to a degree not possible through human engineering. Five of the more finely tuned numbers are included in the table below. For comments about what scientists think about these numbers, see the page Quotes from Scientists Regarding Design of the Universe

  Fine Tuning of the Physical Constants of the Universe

  Parameter	Max. Deviation
  Ratio of Electrons:Protons	1:10 37
  Ratio of Electromagnetic Force:Gravity	1:10 40
  Expansion Rate of Universe	1:10 55
  Mass of Universe1	1:10 59
  Cosmological Constant	1:10 120
  These numbers represent the maximum deviation from the accepted values, that would either prevent the universe from existing now, not having matter, or be unsuitable for any form of life.

  These are just five instances. There are in reality dozens of such impossible random necessities required IN ORDER FOR ANYTHING TO EXIST, and in order to have any basis in logic for atheist's contradicting conclusions.

  EXACTLY like in their previous lives as Witnesses, the atheists on this board claim this "knowing" (or at least claim to know someone who is smart enough to explain it) even without EVER having done so. The chance numbers involved in the constants above are many orders of magnitude beyond the capability of the human mind to understand. Yet, they are as casually accepted as a JW believes in his own imaginary agreement with God to avoid Judgment.

  I personally don't believe that many could be an atheist unless they had a lot of practice as a Jehovah's Witness first, when they live a life deferring their God given reasoning to others.
• 

  Perry

  Just so folks can try and understand the GREATEST of the liklihoods above; Consider:

  Cover the entire North American continent in dimes all the way up to the moon, a height of about 239,000 miles (In comparison, the money to pay for the U.S. federal government debt would cover one square mile less than two feet deep with dimes.). Next, pile dimes from here to the moon on a billion other continents the same size as North America. Paint one dime red and mix it into the billions of piles of dimes. Blindfold a friend and ask him to pick out one dime. The odds that he will pick the red dime are one in 10 37 .
• 

  leavingwt

  If there were NOTHING, rather than something, it would be greater evidence of an all-powerful being.

  Try it. It's VERY hard to MAINTAIN a state of NOTHING.

  Something is easy. Just add ANYTHING to nothing.
• 

  Anti-Christ

  Hey Perry, long time no see. I am only going to address tow points you made, first you ask if being raised in a cult helps some one become an atheist ( I'll ignore the fact that you associate that with C.D.) First I don't think I "became" an atheist I was born with no belief and it's the adults around me who imposed it wile I was growing up. I had a lot of questions about the bible that were never really answered and most of the time I was made to feel bad even thinking about these questions. Later I realised that most of what I was taught was not at all accurate and even a lot was just lies. Just the facts about the formation of the biblical cannon were enough for me to reject the divinely inspired hypothesis ( not to mention all the biblical inaccuracies, absurdities an atrocities). All of this forces me to come to the realisation that all religion needs believers to survive and the more organised and powerful the religion the more it has to lose so logically it ( but "it" I mean it's leaders) will do all in it's power to control what it's followers believe. I find it ironic that religion is subjected to natural selection.

  Second point,

  These are just five instances. There are in reality dozens of such impossible random necessities required IN ORDER FOR ANYTHING TO EXIST, and in

  order to have any basis in logic for atheist's contradicting conclusions.

  I don't find this contradicting, if the laws of the universe were not like they are we would not be having this conversation, there is a possibility that other universes that exist do not have these laws but they would still exist, you say "for everything to exist" but what you don't understand is that "for everything to exist AS WE KNOW IT" that is the detail that a lot of believers tend to forget. You must brake free of the intellectual box religion tends to create and open your mind to different possibilities.

  I am not saying that god is impossible, I just for now don't see any reason to believe in one.
• 

  shamus100

  Hi Perry,

  Those are some interesting numbers that you pull out. What I think you are not considering is how vast our space really is. We see stars here on earth that have long disappeared - that's amazing! The chances of earth being here with the conditions we see are not out of the question.

  In any event, we will all see what happens when we all pass away. It's nice to think that there is something else, but from what I've seen from religion in any form, there is no god behind it.

  I wish you success on your new business venture.
• 

  Perry

  Hi AC,

  I appreciate and am sympathetic to the references you made to childhood grievances. After 1975, as I entered my teenage years I always knew when adults were lying because I could see their lips moving. I had zero respect for authority....and trusted no one but myself. It has been a long road out of the tower for me...even longer to Christ.

  Anyhoo,

  I just want to draw attention to one of the statements you made:

  I don't find this contradicting, if the laws of the universe were not like they are we would not be having this conversation

  IMO, this is the foundation of atheism. If I may reduce the statement even further:

  "Because I exist, there is no God"
• 

  Perry

  I wish you success on your new business venture.

  Thank you Shamus.

  In any event, we will all see what happens when we all pass away. It's nice to think that there is something else

  It is definitely not nice to think of life after death without Jesus Christ Shamus. Atheists chief moral argument against God is that he doesn't prevent evil and so therefore either he doesn't exist or he is a collaborator in evil.

  What they fail to realize is that God will judge evil. It is ONLY in judgment that God can both preserve free choice and deter evil. In other words, the only way for God not to judge evil is for him to be evil himself as the atheists assert.