Does a Cult Background Assist Atheists?

by Perry 57 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Homerovah the Almighty
    Homerovah the Almighty

    Quoting from AlltimeJeff's post,

    Atheism is simply a lack of belief in god. Thats it. (as has been commented on by others.) You are wrong, and thus, totally sabotage your own premise with faulty, dishonest information.

    Since atheism is only a disbelief in the existence of god, where is the cognitive dissonance? That is my one question to you.

    Would you care to reply to those statements and did you read any of the posts put on this thread so far ?

    Maybe an honest and applicably answer to your question may be answered from another question,

    have the many millions of atheists around the globe ever been associated with a cult ?

    Perry I'd like to see some replies from the other posters including myself from this thread topic if you dare or care.

  • AllTimeJeff
    AllTimeJeff

    Perry,

    First of all, my congratulations and best wishes to some of the happy times you have described. I wish you many more.....

    Of course, this being your thread, you are more then free to talk about whatever you want. I, in joining in, assumed you wished to discuss your first observation, that of atheists and what you perceive to be cognitive dissonance on their part. Thus, my first comments were directed in that vein.

    I am unsure what you wish to accomplish by bringing this up and then not addressing the replies. If at best, you would like all of our statements on the matter, then you have accomplished this.

    I will instead address what you have said thus far....

    Cover the entire North American continent in dimes all the way up to the moon, a height of about 239,000 miles (In comparison, the money to pay for the U.S. federal government debt would cover one square mile less than two feet deep with dimes.). Next, pile dimes from here to the moon on a billion other continents the same size as North America. Paint one dime red and mix it into the billions of piles of dimes. Blindfold a friend and ask him to pick out one dime. The odds that he will pick the red dime are one in 10 37 .

    Math, the friend Science has, and that Religion wishes it had. This is an example of advanced, theoretical statistics. Did you know, for the sake of argument, that depending on which quantam physics theory you wish to mine, that it would be a mathmatical impossibility for the big bang NOT to have taken place? Because thats what numbers do.

    The problem with your example (which sounds like you got it out of the JW Creation book, although I know it isn't from that fundie source) is that it is designed for a "flash" effect. It is designed to impress, but it doesn't prove anything, and certainly doesn't improve the chances of your god exisiting. Let me put another spin on your example. I will replace dimes with me. (obviously I can't account for weight and mass differences, we will have to talk to Mr Spock there... lol) My insertions to your text are in red.

    Cover the entire North American continent in AllTimeJeff's all the way up to the moon, a height of about (?) miles (In comparison, the amount of AllTimeJeff's to pay for the U.S. federal government debt would cover (?) with AllTimeJeff's.). Next, pile AllTimeJeff's from here to the moon on a billion other continents the same size as North America. Paint one AllTimeJeff red and mix it into the billions of piles of AllTimeJeff's. Blindfold a friend and ask him to pick out one AllTimeJeff. The odds that he will pick the red AllTimeJeff are one in 10 37 .

    I use humor in this case to make a point. Use whatever example you want, make the numbers enourmous, it still doesn't prove your god exists. It DOES prove that our universe is vast, and their is way more that we don't know then what we do know.

    However, you do not seem to suffer the burden of not knowing, with the requisite humility involved in this. To assert what you do, and that you have special knowledge, and have even communicated with god, is fine for you. It is lacking in relevance for the rest of us. Sadly, the best evidence that you can offer are irrelevant statistics, misapplied in a similar manner to how JW's use facts.

    What troubles me is that you paint atheists with a very broad brush. I hope that readers of this thread understand that atheists do not think or believe as you have described Perry. You are simply wrong, with all due respect, and there is no other way to put it.

  • rebel8
    rebel8

    I can't answer. I'm busy causing hurricanes and changing the speed limit to infinity.

  • Perry
    Perry

    As far as I'm concerned the term atheist implies that a person has come to some conclusion on whether or not there is a Creator. Most dictionaries agree.

    –noun

    1.the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
    2.disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

    This definition is clearly stated in my opening post on this thread but some just seem to have not read it very carefully. Perhaps going back and re-reading would clarify my definition of an atheist as one who posits within himself the paradigm "there is no God", .... as dictionary.com, websters and others confirm is an accurate description. I have pointed this out many times on this board over the years. I usually look for newer arguments to deal with. When this one occassionally comes up I usually ignore, not out of disrespect though. I contrast atheist with an agnostic as one who has not yet come to a conclusion as to whether or not there is a Creator.... a witholding of judgment. I contrast both of these positions with those who believe that there is a God. And, I contrast all of these positions with that of a born again Christian who KNOWS God exists because HE actually lives inside of that person. I hope this clears things up on that. One statement that you made Jeff, shows me that you misread the probability chart. You said: Use whatever example you want, make the numbers enourmous, it still doesn't prove your god exists. It DOES prove that our universe is vast, The numbers show the probability of various features of physics falling within certain margins. Without that degree of fine tuning, the universe either could not exist or support life. Read the caption. They have nothing to do with volume as you state.
  • Perry
    Perry

    What troubles me is that you paint atheists with a very broad brush. I hope that readers of this thread understand that atheists do not think or believe as you have described Perry.

    When I evangelize JW's, I have to first help them to understand what they actually believe. Most do not know that Jesus is not their Mediator. However, they can make this connection when it is pointed out that they are outside of the New Covenant and that Jesus is the mediator of the N.C.

    Likewise, many atheists don't actually know what they believe. When an atheist posits the conclusion "there is no God" ; by definition he must assume that he knows all things so that he can say that he looked everywhere and has logical reason for his conclusion. However, if he could do this, then he would in actuality become the very thing that he asserts doesn't exist. Either way the atheist would be wrong.

  • Homerovah the Almighty
    Homerovah the Almighty

    One thing to think about and give some consideration is are very existence on this planet today could not be possible

    without the earth evolution of its own atmosphere , interesting is it not how scientific evolution can explain these things,

    where primitive men who lived thousands of years could not. The only answer they could come up with were stories of gods.

    So many gods to explain the world we live in but unfortunately not one bit of evidence of a spiritual being anywhere to actualize.

    It makes you wonder if all those thousands of men that said they were spiritual connected entities were all just a big con job.

    Now aren't you glad Perry that we've stepped away from the gods. Thank god science has arrived !

  • Perry
    Perry

    I perceive that the point of my post was somehow lost. Perhaps these short quotes will help some to understand:

    Dr. Dennis Scania, the distinguished head of Cambridge University Observatories: "If you change a little bit the laws of nature, or you change a little bit the constants of nature -- like the charge on the electron -- then the way the universe develops is so changed, it is very likely that intelligent life would not have been able to develop."

    Dr. David D. Deutsch, Institute of Mathematics, Oxford University: "If we nudge one of these constants just a few percent in one direction, stars burn out within a million years of their formation...., If we nudge it a few percent in the other direction, then no elements heavier than helium form. No carbon, no life. Not even any chemistry. No complexity at all."

    The point to my post was that in addition to the items I pointed out in my original post that would not support an atheist worldview there are the probabilities of the 'random" constants of the physical laws for the atheist to deal with.

  • Perry
    Perry

    Perry, how you can demand a prior cause but yet ignore that when it comes to the origin of your god?

    Hi Startingover.

    In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1) We know that God's word tells us that He is without beginning or end (timeless). He created the universe in the "beginning" of time. Get it?

    Many other verses from the New Testament tells us that God was acting before time began, and so, He created time, along with the other dimensions of our universe:

    No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. (1 Corinthians 2:7)
    This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (2 Timothy 1:9)

    The hope of eternal life, which God... promised before the beginning of time (Titus 1:2)

    To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. (Jude 1:25)

  • parakeet
    parakeet

    Perry: "When asked for their religious affiliation, 15 percent of Americans say none, but only 0.7 percent say atheist ...."

    Darn tootin', we say 'none.' At least in the U.S. And it's because of the very probable chance of retaliation from God-fearing, peace-loving fundies like you.

    Perry: "Atheists "believe" that there is no God, yet also "know" that the cosmological constants necessary for the existence of anything requires a belief in the impossibility as well."

    Fundies always say atheists "believe." They don't. They do not believe (as in 'absence of belief') in the existence of God. Do you "believe" pink unicorns live in the depths of the ocean? No? Prove your "belief."

    As to belief in the cosmological constants necessary for existence, one is not required to believe in their impossibility, nor would such belief in their nonexistence prove that there must be a possibility of God. Physics and biology may make the belief in pink unicorns improbable, but the belief that the 'laws' of physics and biology may not apply when it comes to oceanic unicorns does not prove or even imply their existence. But it's amazing what whoppers people are willing to believe.

    Get your head out of the Bible and read some science texts for a change. Real scientists, that is.

    BTW, love your African Grey parrot.

    Message to Perry's parrot -- Bite Perry (not too hard!) and flap some sense into his brain.

  • Homerovah the Almighty
    Homerovah the Almighty

    Maybe the problem Perry is you've yet to realize the words and writings in the bible were by mens own perceptual imaginations

    imaginations that people like yourself are still supporting after thousands of years of human progress..

    There wasn't a word in the bible that wasn't written by a man, by his own thoughts by his own knowledge of the world that HE lived in..

    Interesting is it not that the bible states that man was made in gods own image.

    Maybe men were wishing they could be a god with all the power of a god, could you imagine that, I could.

    There sure were a lot of gods back in those ancient times as you know , just pick one.

    Hey how come there are only handful now, where did they all go ?

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