Question re "I AM" in the gospels

by BlackSwan of Memphis 28 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    So if we are playing the game fairly and are signed up to the reader's contract...

    ... it may take more than 25 minutes. Especially when unlearning old answers and, above all, questions, is involved. ;)

    I won't avoid your question about 9:9 though. It might be explained away as purely coincidental -- that would probably be the most "reasonable" answer at first sight and the most common. I personally tend to think it is deliberate. The blind man of chapter 9, as a recipient of Jesus' "sign," is a paradigm of the elect; his reaction is depicted more positively than that of the paralytic of chapter 5 -- next to the purely passive role of Lazarus "whom Jesus loved" in chapter 11. He was born blind so that God's works may be manifest in him (9:3); he is touched with Jesus' mouth (spit) and washes himself at the pool of the "Envoy" (v. 6). Now for the first time he can speak for himself and his very first word (a very natural one at surface level) happens to echo Jesus' mysterious proclamation (v. 9); although he has not seen Jesus (compare 20:29), he speaks as Jesus does; he knows nothing, or just one thing (I was blind, and now I see) but he actually knows better than the Pharisees, and on this sole intimate knowledge he suffers rejection for the sake of Jesus' name (v. 12ff). Jesus' final words to him, in enigmatic tone, are reminiscent of his previous utterances of the "I am" phrase: ""You have seen him (perfect tense), and the one speaking with you is he(kai ho lalôn meta sou ekeinos estin, cf. 4:26 etc.)" The conclusion is paradigmatic: "I came into this world for judgment so that those who do not see may see, and those who do see may become blind."

    Can you see? ;)

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Well that's a really interesting interpretation that only suffers perhaps from being too clever. But then I don't know I'm not qualified to judge. Was the author of John really that subtle? Did he have all these hidden themes going on that you perceive? If he did I wonder if there is evidence the early readers of the book, the church fathers, made those sorts of inferences concerning the blind man's use of language, and even the tense Jesus used in speaking to him. Are you not perhaps mistaking the author of the Gospel of John for James Joyce? I don't know, as I say, I am not qualified to judge since I 1) don't read Greek and 2) am no literary critic. I just wonder.

    While the Witnesses, by approaching the 'sacred text' looking for proof texts, may miss out on a lot of the text's richness and complexity, perhaps at the other extreme the ultra liberal approaching the text as a literary critic is in danger of inscribing too much meaning.

    Plus whose meaning is it that matters anyway: God who inspired it; the author; the first readers; the redactors who included it in the canon; the church that buit up a tradition around it?

    Implicit in your comments above I get the impression you feel it is the intention of the author that is paramount. To a believer however God is perfectly capable of communicating his thoughts through unwitting agents. Many believers resort to that sort of interpretation with at least parts of the Bible, especially prophecy.

    Even among "religious atheists" who approach the text as a literary/historical unit rather than as God-inspired may differ on where to place the emphasis in interpreting the text. Is the intention of the author paramount in this text's interpretation? What about those who selected the book for inclusion in the canon and likely penned the 21st chapter? Their interests and concerns seem somewhat different to those found in the preceding document. Yet they have succeeded in integrating the text into a sacred collection, and have evidently made some significant changes along the way. So maybe parsing their agenda for the text is the more urgent task. The document as it originally existed is after all no longer extant. It is only preserved as part of the collection.

    I see what you say about the deficiencies in how Jehovah's Witnesses and other proof text-hoarding literalists read the Bible. I can see the advantages of taking into consideration, as you say, the genre of the text, intertextualities and so on. I agree with all that instinctively. I am already won over to that way of thinking. I was a long time ago. I prefer your way to the way JWs do things, I really do...

    ...but, but, but. On the other hand isn't it also a bit convenient too? Reading the text in the way that you advocate yields a fuller appreciation for the complexity and depth of the text. But I can't help noticing that it also necessarily, and conveniently, results in a reading that emphasizes the ambiguities, outside allusions and internal contradictions, that sit comfortably with your view that the text is not divinely inspired but essentially a human construct to be understood within a literary and historical context, rather than within the context of divine revelation. In other words your method of interpretation confirms your beliefs and your beliefs in turn confirm your methods.

    The Witnesses are doing the same when they approach the Bible as divinely inspired, coherent, and filled with proof texts. They start with those assumptions in their reading, and their reading confirms those assumptions.

    To be clear again, I prefer your way of reading the text, and I enjoy reading books and commentaries these days that approach the text liberally with a full armoury of text-critical methods. At the same time I know of no objective way of proving that approach to be better, more accurate, or faithful (all loaded words I know) than what Jehovah's Witnesses do. So I would be more cautious perhaps than you are in claiming that the way Jehovah's Witnesses read the text is in some way 'wrong' and that the modern critical approach is 'correct'. All I can say for sure is that they are different and that I prefer one to the other.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    About method.

    The interpretive paraphrase I offered in my last post has little to do with critical scholarship and claims no authority whatsoever. I only (and somewhat reluctantly) wrote it to answer your persistent question -- what can (not must!) the use of egô eimi in John 9 suggest, in a less-than-apparent (hence strictly unprovable) sense?

    My proposition corresponds to the kind of reading I was practicing about 25 years ago, as I began reading the Greek New Testament for the first time, still a JW (at Bethel to be precise), without any formal training or exercise in scholarly exegesis and theology. It is basically pre-critical (aside from unconscious critical thinking that may have seeped from the outer 20th-century world into my own subcultural sphere). As far as I can tell (it would take a study of ancient exegesis of this passage to know) it is much closer to what ancient and medieval Greek commentators may have read in(to?) the text than to what modern exegesis with a minimalist approach (an anachronistic overuse of Occam's razor to this text?) would find in it. The point to me back then is that it made much more and better sense, in a both intellectual and "mystical" way, than the doctrinal and argumentative use of the Bible in WT literature.

    Looking back I can see this type of reading implies a sort of epokhè, a suspension of judgement about many things. To me, at that point in my life, about doctrine (and more existentially, what might happen to me). But also about sorting out what may or may not belong to "history," to the conscious intention or the unconscious drift of the author or redactor, to mere chance (as writing writes itself) and to my own creativity in reading. This sits well with a believer's setting where "God" is in charge of, and working through everything (that was my "faith" understanding back then). This sits equally well, I find now, with non-theistic perspective where "God" may be nowhere but mystery remains (all the more!) everywhere. The only difference is that in the latter perspective it definitely forsakes any claim to authority.

    Reading is a subjective event. An intersubjective one too (as it interacts with the authors' and other readers' subjectivities) and much more than that (since there is more than intention to any text and any reading). I say let it happen. Johannine literature is a wonderful playground for both discovery and invention (inventio). I can't exactly tell which is which, and that doesn't matter very much to me. What I do feel in the reading experience is a deep sympathy with the text which seems to work both ways. As a JW I personally came back from it deeply changed. Whether it is true or false, I don't know. I know one thing: I was blind and now I see.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat
    I only (and somewhat reluctantly) wrote it to answer your persistent question -- what can (not must!) the use of egô eimi in John 9 suggest, in a less-than-apparent (hence strictly unprovable) sense?

    Thank you it was very interesting, I appreciate it. Sorry about being persistent.

    Johannine literature is a wonderful playground for both discovery and invention (inventio). I can't exactly tell which is which, and that doesn't matter very much to me. What I do feel in the reading experience is a deep sympathy with the text which seems to work both ways.

    I can't explain why but I don't feel that way. I feel it matters if we are simply inventing rather than finding meaning. I think there is still an assumption that interpretations can be authoritative. Although I doubt that assumption myself, I see it around me as the common expectation, even if it has perhaps been eroded since the height of the modern period it's still there. I wonder how people who enjoy the game and others who really think they are finding cold facts can comminicate without misunderstanding.

  • quietlyleaving
    quietlyleaving

    I guess it also depends on whether one is doing it for oneself or for society at large.

    Reinforecment of authority from scripture is hugely effective in society at large through the centuries.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    If I retain one thing from my reader's experience in Johannine literature and its constant use of misunderstanding, it is that "depth" and "ambiguity" are the two sides of the same coin.

    I can see many cultural and personal reasons why many today reject (or are indifferent to) both.

    The relationship between "unique meaning" and "authority" is something I have given some thought lately (while studying some of Calvin's exegesis and hermeneutics in particular). It seems to me that the creativity of ancient and medieval "spiritual" exegesis (allegory, anagogy, tropology, etc.) could thrive in a church where the burden of authority rested on the institution (through tradition and the magisterium in theory, fixed dogma and ritual in practice); exegesis was in a sense freer, because it didn't need to be authoritative. It didn't have to "prove", it was enough to "show" (monstratio not demonstratio). Consequently it inspired and allowed for belief rather than compell or constrain belief. Freedom from institution (by) sola scriptura would quickly require the authoritative force of unique, linear (and circular) meaning, dispelling both ambiguity and depth. Calvin can be seen as a turning point in a long-range process which can be traced back much earlier (to Thomas Aquinas who is already conscious of the lack of "demonstrating force" of allegory, or even to Jerome against the Greeks) and will eventually lead to rational criticism.

    The problem is that modern critical reductionism is at least as alien to the texts as pre-modern allegorising. Whence the happy comeback of older approaches under new names (narratology, rhetorical analysis and so on) in scholarship in the last 30 years or so. Still something is lost in making the implicit explicit. Darkness shining in brightness which brightness could not comprehend.

  • quietlyleaving
    quietlyleaving

    Narkissos, for some reason your post reminds me of Jesus words "In my fathers house there are many abodes"

    (or it may just be that I have an exam I need to be going to ....)

  • BlackSwan of Memphis
    BlackSwan of Memphis

    Omg this is making my head hurt.

    I **think** I see what is being said for the most part. Don't take my lack of response as lack of interest or not reading the posts.

    I read and reread and reread much of what was posted yesterday and am wrapping my head around what is being said.

    Let me see if I get the first page of the thread properly (Correct me where I'm wrong)

    The ego emi HAS been used by other people, but not in the same context as the way Jesus used it in John. However, that being said, there is much more to the context itself to understand what thought is actually being conveyed. So much so that it could be taken as Jesus was saying I am the messenger of God (?) and not necessarily him saying that he is indeed God himself.

    How am I doing?

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    For me, John 8:58 clinches the matter.

    I believe Fred Franz went to such great pains to obscure the meaning of this passage because he knew the implications of that statement.

    Sylvia

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