The Evidence For Evolution (From "why do we say 'I believe evolution'")

by Spook 33 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Spook
    Spook

    I started this as a new thread because the orignal was getting rather long and distant from the OP. Mad Dog and I were circulating what, I maintain (or admit) are some fairly specific grounds for starting the discussion.

    He was defending a version of (as I understand it): It is unfounded or irrational to accept the theory of evolution as probably true because either the evidence is insufficient compared to what should be observed according to the theory OR the evidence observed, while corresponding to the theory, nevertheless is based on unfounded or irrational assumptions.

    He is not saying, as I understand it, the following: There exists some evidence which either falsifies the necessary conditions OR some other theory which better fits the data.

    I was defending and will defend: It is rational to accept the theory of evolution as probably true because the evidence closely corresponds to and is sufficient compared to what should be observed according to the theory and (if we ever get there) it is irrational to reject or postpone judgement of the theory on these grounds.

    I'll certainly leave the last half for now, and cut right to the chase in as terse a way possible to allow a likewise pointed rebuttal.

    If the theory of evolution were true...

    1. The necessary condition of variation within a population of organisms should be observed.

    2. The necessary condition of a means of heredity should be observed.

    3. The necessary condition of mechanisms os selection should be observed to act on, within and between populations of organisms.

    (These conditions, if proven, satisfy that the theory is at least possibly true, but does not constitute grounds to determine rational belief or disbelief in common descent.)

    4. There should be evidence observable in the present and derivable through repeatable analytic means therefrom that life has existed on earth for a long time with respect to the life span of any known organism.

    5. Any evidence for the existance of past life forms which is observable in the present should by comparative anatomy, geographical location, computational dating and other methods correspond to the prediction of the descent of species from common ancestors.

    6. The current biogeographical distribution of species alive today should be observed to correspond to the theory of common descent and also fit the evidence in (5).

    7. Given genetics, the observable evidence in (6, some of 5, some of 1-3) should be verified to match any corresponding prediction derived from the theory.

    (These observations, a posteriori, would constitute strong evidence for the conclusion that probably, evolution is true and may or may not constitute logical grounds for rational belief depending on exactly how an opposing position is developed. Given no opposing position, my conclusion would hold unless it can be established that either the necessary conditions are not met or that of necessity more evidence is predicted by the theory than is shown in 4-7. Mad Dog has not claimed, for instance, that something exists for which it is impossible for evolution to account. Some may claim consciousness, love, music, irreducible complexity, human language, etc. There are additional arguments which can be made against specific opposing theories - but as a null situatin of reserving judgement has been taken I'll leave it at these.)

    Yes, of course all of these require extensive elaboration, have many corollary modifications and additions, etc. It might be worthwhile before proceeding to at least deal with the premises. Here is the opportunity to substantiate the claim that No, even if all these were satisfied, it would still be irrational to believe that evolution probably occured for some other reason.

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    And what about creation? In order for the Bible account for creation to be true, there would have to be a genetic bottleneck around 4,400 years ago. We have not seen evidence of that. You also would need to find the earliest human remains around 6,000 years ago with little or nothing before that--there is proof that fossils older than that are common (any high school biology student could do a report on that). Humans dating more than 10,000 years ago are in fact very common, precluding any creation that happened 6,000 years ago.

  • Mad Dawg
    Mad Dawg

    1. John drives for one hour at 60 MPH, how far did he drive?

    It depends on what you mean. Do you mean how far in straight line adjusted absolute coordinates he is from his original destination? What's the curvature of the surface he's on? Net distance from the starting point?

    1. Mike leaves point A with 32,254 miles on the odometer, he arrives at B with 32,494 miles on the odometer. How far did he drive?

    Assuming the odometer is accurately calibrated for the tire diameter, air pressure, slippage...?

    1. Bob drives for 1½ hours and arrives at point X with 12,009 on his odometer. How far did he drive?

    Same answer.

    We're both getting pretty obtuse.

    Please re-read the above and tell me who is obtuse. These are simple questions. Do you fear answering them as they are, plainly written? If not, then please do.

    I have never needed philosophical gobble-dy-gook to engage in science before. Why should I start now? Galileo, Capernacus, Newton, Pastuer, Einstein, et al did not encumber themselves with asking those questions. Why should I?

    I am not going to get caught up in a protracted semantic/philisohpical battle when the issue is much simpler than that. It takes you a multitude of paragraphs to state your position. Mine is very simple: “The individual ‘facts’ of evolution are without support.” You want me to prove it, but complain when I do. You want to assert certain assumptions are true, but I am not allowed to show that they are false.

    Black = Mad Dawg's questions from a previous post.

    Red = Spook's (non) response to those questions.

    Blue = Mad Dawg's observations about Spook's (non) response and his post above.

  • quietlyleaving
    quietlyleaving

    I think we'd have to read the previous thread to see what mad dawg was really saying to be fair to his argument. Here is a sample.

    There is no “#1 fact.” Evolution dies a death of a thousand cuts. One of the things that I have noticed is that Evo’s like to make grand statements such as “ALL the facts point to evolution.”

    So, I take the above statement at face value and test it. At best, the premise is inscrutable. At worst it is false. Regardless, it cannot be said to be true.

    If one says: “’A’ is true because of ‘B,’” then B must be shown to be true. If B is false, A may still be true, but not because of B. If B is the only evidence of the truth of A, then we can not state that A is true. This is why I am asking how you know the history of any genome.

    Your observations about axioms are good. I have two things to say about it:

    Ø The axioms one holds affects how they interpret the world.

    Ø A system of thought only needs to be consistant with the axioms it is based on.

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/173421/1/Why-do-we-say-I-believe-in-evolution

    page 4.

    I think the points above are worth getting one's head around because it seems to me that mad dawgs argument hinges on the coloured bit above.

  • quietlyleaving
    quietlyleaving

    hey guys its a lot simpler to follow what you are all saying if you use the table&pencil icon to create boxes for copied texts. Just reduce the columns and rows to one each and then paste your text in the

    that appears (Only it doesn't appear quite like above before you paste your text in and before you submit)

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    there would have to be a genetic bottleneck around 4,400 years ago.

    There have been very tight genetic bottlenecks in humanity's past.

    Just sayin'

    BTS

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    Why are some people so afraid of evolution? It's a natural process.

    Why do so many people think that if they study evolution they have to give up God?

    If you believe in God, wouldn't God be able to exist in a world/universe/reality that evolves/grows/changes/creates?

    If Bill Gates was trying to sell the internet to the middle east 2,000 years ago, what sort of language could he use so that they would understand?

    I wish people would stop trying to force the literal bible (which is can be quite successul if used in a spiritual way) into a scientific and material culture.

    They both speak of the same things BUT IN DIFFERENT WAYS, using different language.

    wp

  • Mad Dawg
    Mad Dawg

    Why are some people so afraid of evolution? It's a natural process.

    Why are some people so afraid of creation? If evo is a natural process, then prove it.

    Why do so many people think that if they study evolution they have to give up God?

    Evolution has theological implications whithin the sphere of Christianity. Why do so many people think that if evolution is false, they have to worship God?

    If you believe in God, wouldn't God be able to exist in a world/universe/reality that evolves/grows/changes/creates?

    The question is not “Is He able to….” The question is “does He….”

    If Bill Gates was trying to sell the internet to the middle east 2,000 years ago, what sort of language could he use so that they would understand?

    He would probably use Greek. Bill would have to invent new terms to describe certain things, but they would have gotten it. When white guys ventured into the jungles 30 or 40 years ago, they found that the locals were very intelligent. Just because a society is not technologically advanced does not mean that the people are simple minded. They built stuff that we cannot duplicate today.

    If you are trying to say that they would not have understood evolution, that dog don’t hunt. There are evolutionary stories going back to Babylon.

    I wish people would stop trying to force the literal bible (which is can be quite successul if used in a spiritual way) into a scientific and material culture.

    I wish people would quit overstating the support for evolution and admit what they don’t know. Why must ‘people’ capitulate to your position?

    They both speak of the same things BUT IN DIFFERENT WAYS, using different language.

    Both what speak the same what things?

    Black = Will Power’s post

    Blue = Mad Dawg’s response

  • drwtsn32
    drwtsn32

    You guys seriously need to learn how to use quote boxes.

  • Spook
    Spook

    To the poster who mentioned formatting for easy reading: I'll keep trying.

    Mad Dog asked three questions:

    1. The answer to the first one is 60 miles, the product of average velocity and time.

    2. The answer to the second one is 240 miles, the difference between the reading at B and A.

    3. The answer to the third one is not less than the product of 1.5 hours and the minimum average rate capable for the vehicle, and also not more than 12009 miles. Given many defensible assumptions about the nature of driving you could infer more knowledge out of these details. If you disagree with the not less than assumption, your question is clearly non-sensical if the driver had no net distance the query is linguistically false and has no meaning.

    Mad Dog then replied:

    I have never needed philosophical gobble-dy-gook to engage in science before. Why should I start now? Galileo, Capernacus, Newton, Pastuer, Einstein, et al did not encumber themselves with asking those questions. Why should I?

    We would probably agree that Science in general via the scientific method does indeed have a philosophical underpinning in an assumption of metaphysical naturalism. That's by no means a short or easy conversation. The named scientists may not have held philosophical language in his head while forming theories, but to make a meaningful hypothesis specificity and assumptions are indeed required as we have previously stated. But these are still inherent in the language of science. Furthermore, those who critique and attempt to falsify these claims do ask such questions.

    The two postulates of Special Relativity (Einstein, 1905) are as follows:

    1. The laws of physics are the same for all observers in uniform motion relative to each other.

    2. The speed of light in a vacuum is the same for all observers regardless of their relative motion or of the motion of the source of light.

    (It's also based on the accuracy of a Lorentz transformation.) Now based on the hypotheses postulated in the theory, we infer that simultaineity is relative to the observer, time is dilated relative to an observer, length is contracted relative to the observer and, finally, that there exists a mass-energy equivalence and transmutability. Among the reasons we have to accept the theory are facts that rays of light bend in gravitational fields and that orbits precess. It would be irrational to reject this theory because the necessary conditions are true by definition or axiomatic formulae and at least some evidence - however inscrutible or subtle it may seem - confirms the inferences of the theory. It would be rational to reject this theory if, when and to the extent that either the data can better fit some other theory of equal strength or some significant data exists which falsifies the theory.

    This doesn't mean it's true. I can't even "prove" to you that water boils at 100 degrees C. (It doesn't, as a matter of fact - and I'm not talking about pressure and solids corrctions (Inventing Temperature, Chang-2004)). It is not a fact that water boils at 100 degrees. It is rational to operate under most circumstances, however, with the belief that a normally heated volume of water will begin to boil at or about 100 degrees.

    There is no reason you have to accept relativity - maybe even some not to. I've had only one college level course in astral physics and it's enough to show me how much I don't know.

    For us, the normative language of "what ought one to believe" is needed to determine - within the closed framework of logic - whether one can say that rejecting or accepting a belief is rational. Much more or less may indeed be possible and therefore possibly be true, but no more can be proven.

    I'm going to say these specifically, yet sometimes more narrowly then I may otherwise argue.

    Fact: Genes, during copying, mutate in several discreet ways. This is prima facie and as far as I know, uncontested.

    Fact: At least some are non-deleterious. This is not only observable, but is true ipso facto since #1 is true and yet life persists in species where the mutation rate and gene volume would counterbalance the birth rate if it were true that all mutations are deleterious.

    Fact: At least some of these can be inherited and fixate in a population. Observable and can be tracked and predicted with some low level mathematics.

    Ergo - variation occurs and is accounted for by the theory of evolution. One down, six to go.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit