Reniaa, do you have a personal relationship with Jesus?
The Bible says that life comes through knowing Jesus. Do you know him? If so, do you speak to him?
WT argument about knowing God's name is a fallacy!
by JimmyPage 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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BONEZZ
God's name is Art! Scripture proves it..."Hallowed be thy name who is Art, in heaven." Now go door to door spreading the good news of Art.
-BONEZZ
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Spook
I think there is strong evidence that YHWH was indeed a "name" given to the Jewish God. But I think this probably came from an older Eastern "Yaw", another diety. I believe it was used to distinguish this god from others in a pantheon. Yet, the real problem with the divine name argument is as follows:
1. (JW assumption) If God were to exist then it is his purpose that humans identify him by a personal name represented by YHWH. (Assuming the old testament is true, there is at least some evidence for this.)
2. If God were to exist then things which are very important to him should be obvious from the bible.
3. If God were to exist and wanted his name to be used then Jesus and his disciples, if they existed, would have used his name.
4. If the new testament were true and reliable, then the recorded words and actions of Jesus and his disciples would be accurately contained therein, especially when very important issues are concerned.
5. Yet the new testament does not contain any evidence that either Jesus or his disciples used the divine name.
6. Therefore either it is false that it is important to God, if he exists, that he be identified by his name or it is false that the new testament is accurate and reliable even about very important things.
My feeling is that the presence of a divine name lost to Christians is strong evidence that Christianity is a poorly tacked on additon to a completely different theological system, Judaism, and is therefore false. There are at least some good arguments against this - none of which the Jehovah's Witnesses can muster.
The JW defense is usually this:
1. If it were true that for some higher purpose, such as the vindication of his sovereignty, it were necessary for Jehovah to delay the spread of bible truth including the use of his name, then perhaps there is a strong reason for the new testament and the divine name to both be accepted as true.
I would disagree with this because:
1. According to Jehovah's Witnesses, the use of the divine name is so important to Jehovah that it is necessary for worship to be acceptable to God, assuming he exists.
2. Yet, for the vindication of divine sovereignty to be meaningful, it is necessary for people to freely choose to serve Jehovah should he exist. If God himself, were he to exist, is the cause of non-belief in him he would in essence be a contributing cause to his own problem of sovereignty.
3. It is also a strong inference that were God to exist and if the bible is true then the theistic God has a stronger desire for people to know and love him than he does for truth to be obscured for another purpose.
4. Also, if it were true that God were obscuring the chance for true belief in him then he is providing evidence for the fact that he does not deserve to be worshipped when it seems like if he provided any evidence he would choose to present evidence that would cause rational people to freely choose to serve him, not the opposite.
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the research lady
John 17:11-12 "Also, I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are ". "When I was with them I used to watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me:and I have kept them, and not one of them is destroyed except the son of destruction in order that the scripture might befulfilled". NWT
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JimmyPage
Great points here from so many. I'm really appreciating the passion for the subject. Lots of food for thought!
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Pistoff
Reneeia said:
"I'm seeing a lot of rhetoric here but no scripture the jewish superstition on gods name was not scriptural they were scared to use it they let it go into non-usage."
Is there a scripture that says we must address God by a personal name that we can't be sure of?
Most sources on all sides feel that the Jews stopped using it out of reverence for the name, a desire to not profane it and the tradition of building a wall around the law and the name of God. It is much more complicated than saying it was superstition. Why insult them by calling it superstition? Is there a degree of superstition in all religious belief? Would they say you have a superstition about blood?
The actual deriviation of YHWH or Yahweh is interesting in itself; research what some respected scholars say about Yahweh and it's possibly being the name of a local Canaanite tribal deity, in competition with Baal. There is little disagreement among scholars that the jews early on worshipped El the god of their neighbor tribes, and that later on the history was massaged to read that Yahweh only later revealed himself as the god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. If El was good enough for Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...............
As an apparently loyal JW, you must realize that most of your beliefs (I know, I grew up there too) are based on the law of Moses, much more so than salvation by Jesus.
I think it is fascinating to read about why the Jews stopped using the name. What I find interesting is that people think God really cares if we call him by a personal name; after all, is there another God to confuse the matter? We certainly do not know what the early pronunciation was; is God maybe irritated that we keep using it but say it wrongly??
In any event, the scriptures you cited regarding God's name do not prove that the writer or reader used the actual name for God, or if they used adonai as tradition suggests.
Beliefs change, slowly usually. Do the witnesses believe or talk the way they did 40 years ago? I know they don't; I have been a witness for 40 years.
For whatever reasons beliefs change, it is more interesting to me now to find out how if possible, and why, than to just dismiss them.
P
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passwordprotected
Great post, pistoff.
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LUKEWARM
Interesting quote Garry, where is it from?
Lukewarm
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metatron
This 'God's Name' stuff may be the dumbest doctrine of the Watchtower.
1) The 'Lord's Prayer' argument is an example of not seeing the forest for the trees. Jesus sets the example of addressing God as 'Our Father', period, end of discussion. There is no proof that the 'name' in 'hallowed be thy name' refers to Yahweh or Jehovah. Jews referred to 'Gods name' as a way of addressing His Authority, not the literal name Yahweh or whatever. How do I know this?
Because the Watchtower admits that the Bible does this! Read page 12 volume 2 of the Insight book. "The Name" can refer to the ideas expressed by 'Gods Name'.
2) Yes, the Jews slacked off in using the Name probably because they wanted to avoid profanation by the Gentiles who dominated them. This is why the Name is missing in Esther, Ecclesiastes and most of Nehemiah. If you look closely at Daniel, you can see him shift between using 'Jehovah' in private prayer and using euphemisms like 'Ancient of Days' or 'Revealer of Secrets' in more public settings.
3) 'Jehovah' avoided using the Name HIMSELF !! - at a perfect opportunity to use it. Jesus said "Father, Glorify your name'" and the heavenly reply was "I both glorified it and will glorify it again" (John 12:28). Again, we see how the name Yahweh or Jehovah was avoided in favor of the idea of the 'Name' representing the idea of Divine Authority.
4) Jesus avoided using the name Yahweh or Jehovah while dying on the cross. The Psalm he quoted says 'God', not Jehovah. The words were transliterated into Greek - thereby avoiding yet another opportunity to push 'Jehovah' into all the Bibles in the world.
metatron