by Simon 22 Replies latest jw friends
Blondie,
"the dove was considered cleanPlease provide scriptural evidence that a dove is clean. What makes a dove clean? Clean for what purpose? Not to eat surely because Noah never ate his birds and animals, did he? And what did Ravens eat that made them unclean? When did dietary requirements become law?
Thirdson
'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'
Yes, the flood story fits in with later events ... almost as if it was a made up story by someone who didn't think through all the angles.
BTW: What do you mean "It's a bit like criticizing Star Trek which we all know is not scientific and is just fantasy"? Are you trying to tell me that Star Trek is not real?! That SevenOfNine's and her suit dont exist? Please ... tell me no ...
Thirdson,
In Noah's time it seems that "clean" means acceptable for sacrifice since humans did not eat animals before the flood.
Genesis 8:20 ***
20 And Noah began to build an altar to Jehovah and to take some of all the clean beasts and of all the clean flying creatures and to offer burnt offerings upon the altar.
It wasn't until the Mosaic Law that these birds were specifically named as "unclean" for eating.
Deuteronomy 14:11-20 ***
11 “Any clean bird YOU may eat. 12 But these are the ones of which YOU must not eat: the eagle and the osprey and the black vulture, 13 and the red kite and the black kite and the glede according to its kind; 14 and every raven according to its kind; 15 and the ostrich and the owl and the gull and the falcon according to its kind; 16 the little owl and the long-eared owl and the swan, 17 and the pelican and the vulture and the cormorant, 18 and the stork and the heron according to its kind, and the hoopoe and the bat. 19 And every winged swarming creature is unclean for YOU. They should not be eaten. 20 Any clean flying creature YOU may eat.
The Bible does not state specifically why the animals were unclean ceremonially. Most of the birds are birds of prey or scavengers but not all.
The vision given to Peter shows that humans are no longer bound by the Law including the dietary laws.
Acts 10:12-15 ***
12 and in it there were all sorts of four-footed creatures and creeping things of the earth and birds of heaven. 13 And a voice came to him: “Rise, Peter, slaughter and eat!” 14 But Peter said: “Not at all, Lord, because never have I eaten anything defiled and unclean.” 15 And the voice [spoke] again to him, the second time: “You stop calling defiled the things God has cleansed.”
Blondie
You said: "humans did not eat animals before the flood."
Typical Watchtower thinking! Why was Cain called a herder of Sheep?
Where did he aquire his skills at slaughtering them and so putting them upon the "Alter" as an offering.
If your Watchtower thinking is correct, then God was responsible for the flood and so he was also responsible for turning the whole of manknd into meat eaters.
Not that I believe any of the Bible Fairy Stories, just illustrating how stupid it all gets.
Radar
Like all people who have nothing, I lived on dreams
Blondie,
You said,
"In Noah's time it seems that "clean" means acceptable for sacrifice since humans did not eat animals before the flood."Could you add to this. Why does the Bible seem to indicate that certain animals were "clean" to sacrifice? What anatomical or instictive difference between animals would make them clean. Why would God take delight in the sacrifice of a goat but not say in a bear or maybe an elephant?
Doesn't it seem more reasonable that the audience for which the "Deluge" story was written was well versed in "the law" and knew from dietary requirements what was clean and unclean.
As Radar pointed out sheep herding was done from the time of the fall of man. (Gen 4:2 Abel became a herder of sheep.) What good did herding animals serve for a vegetarian human population? Look at modern farming practice from American feed lots to nomadic plains people. Why do they herd animals?
The internal inconsistancies nulify the Genesis acounts as real history. The real story is how this collection of early myth came to be included in story of the Hebrew people.
Thirdson
'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'
My modern day Noah story:
God told Noah that a flood was going to cause a deluge upon the earth and Noah asked God to save his soul. And God said unto him "Do not fear, for I will save you".
The rains started and the waters rose and Noahs neighbours started to flee saying "Noah, come with us for you are sure to perish!", and Noah replied "No, my God has promised to save me!"
And the waters continued to rise, now turning into a torrent of rivers. Along came a lifeboat, and the life gaurds grabbed Noah and tried to force him on-board. Noah stood his ground and said "I trust in my God to save me!"
Finally, the waters came up to Noahs neck and a helicopter appeared and lowered a rope. But Noah refused to take the rope shouting, "my God has promised to save me!"
Finally the waters covered Noah and he was swept away to a watery death.
Noah opened his eyes and with a puzzled expression looked around at his heavenly surroundings.
"God?" he said, "why did you not save me?" and God replied, "Well I sent your neighbours, a life boat and a bloody helicopter - what more do you expect!!!"
BTW, radar, it was Abel who was the herder of sheep. Just because a person herds sheep and even kills them to sacrifice does not mean that they eat them.
Thirdson, it is acknowledged by Bible scholars that Moses compiled the book of Genesis perhaps from written and oral records of the Jews. It is possible Moses added his own spin to it based on information from his time. Even in Moses time there are no recorded details as to why some animals were clean and some were not.
If this is an exercise in discrediting the Bible, then why ask the question? It is just as Thirdson said,
It's a bit like criticizing Star Trek which we all know is not scientific and is just fantasy.
Simon,
It is really revealing to take a look at bible stories, without the blinding spirit inspired 'eyeglasses' of the 'The entire Bible, every word is inspired' group.
To allow your own reasoning power's to translate what you read, is so very foriegn to them, that they are frieghtened by the very concept, of questioning it's veracity.
Instead they are content, like the WTBS, to search high and low for anthing that will bolster or hold up, what the bible say's...no matter how ridiculous and hard to swallow.
Thanks for your take on Noah and his 'birds'.
Danny
Blondie'
Thirdson, it is acknowledged by Bible scholars that Moses compiled the book of Genesis perhaps from written and oral records of the Jews. It is possible Moses added his own spin to it based on information from his time. Even in Moses time there are no recorded details as to why some animals were clean and some were not.Firstly, please provide a list of scholars who believe "Moses" wrote the book of Genesis. If Moses wrote from prior written and oral records (like I said earlier, the deluge is a compilation from separate sources) were these inspired or are you saying that Genesis 6 is not inspired? Did Noah become ceremonially unclean for touching unclean animals? (He didn't eat any) How did he know which were clean and which were unclean?
Pehaps I am missing something. Do I need to read Genesis with eyes of faith and simply believe it is true and ignore all the inconsistancies, errors and and cultural history at the time of its writing?
Thirdson
"The idea that there is one people in possession of the truth, one answer to the world’s ills or one solution to humanity’s needs has done untold harm throughout history.” - Kofi Annan
I guess what you might be missing, Thirdson, is that if you don't believe parts of the Bible or any of it as being inspired, I have no problem with that. I figure each of us makes our own inspection of the Bible and then come to a personal conclusion. I have and it sounds like you have already done this.
