That was great AK.
The Witnesses basically think they can tell God what to do.
BTS
Crazy doctrines of Jw's
by AK - Jeff 43 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Chalam
Hi Jeff,
Yep. Of course they have it all wrong.
Amen!
I do believe that it is quite likely that all other religions have it all wrong also.
Amen! BTW I am not a fan of religion and neither is God. He likes faith. Check you bible for the use of these two words and see for yourself.
Especially those who rely on any particular HolyWrit of ancient times.
Well I believe the bible is thoroughly modern, in fact, the future.
I believe that something much larger than myself is out there... somewhere.... in some form. But I have no idea what, and doubt that whatever is out there gives two shekels about me.
I disagree. I am coming to the same conclusion as my born again friends you have talked to. You need faith! I have been thinking about it, all you need is a tiny amount, a baby step of faith, a mustard seed like the bible says.
Yes, it can be illusive and difficult to grasp. I am trying to grasp it in certain areas for certain practical spiritual gifts too and it is hard for me in this respect and very easy for some others :(
However, I believe there is something practical and you need to do it. Ask Him to help you and He will if you are sincere!
It is like riding a bike. You can look at the bike thinking "I am never going to ride it". You can read the manual and say, "well I don't really believe it is true, I know what the manual says and it won't work". You can think about who made the bike and for what they made it and say "I don't believe it is for riding and if it is, I can't ride it". It takes faith to get up on two wheels but once you do it you will never forget. There is something practical. Get on the bike and hold the handle bars, check out the pedals, give them a push with your feet. Watch some people riding their bikes and talk to them, see how they do it. Forget the doubters and non riders. Focus on and plan for success.
All the best,
Stephen
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AK - Jeff
I love ya' brother Chalam.
My faith is more like the faith of the Ancient Indians. They needed no book, except the book of nature.
Right after my mind got washed up, after leaving Jw's - I got close to thinking I would end up Born Again. But something got in the way of all that. Something Big - real Big.
The Bible.
It's premises are rooted in mythology, it's prophecies were written after the facts, it's words of wisdom - conflicting. No two religions seem to be able to agree on it's details. So I began to ask myself: "Self, if you were God, would you make finding yourself to be so difficult. Almost impossible?" I answered myself: "Nope. I would just write the basic things people needed to know in order to put faith in me right up there in the sky where all could see, and no doubt could arise as to what I meant."
I concluded that the best scenario is that God has little interest in whether we know him or not, at least in a personal way. And that the Bible and all other books that claim God as the author, are frauds. Certainly no omniscient God would provide such a writing to show us the way. He could just show us clearly - not as some claim personally - which can also be fraudulent - he would just show us plainly what we need to know. There would be absolutely no doubt. There could never be justifiable reason for mankind to have thousands of religions. If we are supposed to have 'faith' in God, he would show us clearly the who, what, where, why and when. It could only be interpreted like God intended, unlike the [choose your holy book] which can be interpreted as many ways as there are people who read it. Faith based on such a book would be ludicrous. And it is. Everyone believes what he wants and has faith in his 'truth'.
As it is, true faith could never be found. Not in the churches. Not in the Bible. Not in anything like that. My faith is in reality. If God wants to make it absolutely clear to me and the rest of mankind, he will. So far - after several thousand years of man's history, he has not.
Jeff
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Chalam
Hi Jeff,
OK here's one to leave you with as you think that biblical prophecy is false and thus the bible itself.
Ezekiel 11:17 (New International Version)
17 "Therefore say: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will gather you from the nations and bring you back from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you back the land of Israel again.'
Ezekiel 20:41 (New International Version)
41 I will accept you as fragrant incense when I bring you out from the nations and gather you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will show myself holy among you in the sight of the nations.
Ezekiel 28:25 (New International Version)
25 " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I gather the people of Israel from the nations where they have been scattered, I will show myself holy among them in the sight of the nations. Then they will live in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob.
Ezekiel 34:13 (New International Version)
13 I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land.
Ezekiel 36:24 (New International Version)
24 " 'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.
Ezekiel 37:21 (New International Version)
21 and say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land.
Isaiah 11:12 (New International Version)
12 He will raise a banner for the nations
and gather the exiles of Israel;
he will assemble the scattered people of Judah
from the four quarters of the earth.Isaiah 66:8 (New International Version)
8 Who has ever heard of such a thing?
Who has ever seen such things?
Can a country be born in a day
or a nation be brought forth in a moment?
Yet no sooner is Zion in labor
than she gives birth to her children.So where have the Jews been for the best part of 2000 years? Where was their homeland? Where is it now?
Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Independence from British Mandate of Palestine - Declaration May 14, 1948
Law of Return - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
All the best,
Stephen -
jakmarx
Depends weh armageddon begins and finishes. It could be resonible to presume (ahem), that this could over a period of time. Also worth remembering Jehovah as the creator of the entire universe, can make sure that this situation wont happen. We dont know what Bill or max's heart conditions are too. sooo yeh.. lol
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Narkissos
About the OP, what (slightly) bothers me in the opposition of the two scenarii is the implicit assumption that the reverse would be better. Leaving aside the particular "timing" criterion of JWs, it seems to me that there is always an (immoral, abnormal, illogical, counter-intuitive, unexpected, absurd, scandalous, gratuitous, arbitrary; pick your adjective ;-) aspect to Christian "salvation" which is essential to the very notion of "grace" -- the first will be the last, and so on.
Whence imo the fact that Christian soteriology (doctrine of salvation) never ceased to play with a universalistic horizon (salvation for all) without ever really embracing it. One reason is that, for many Christians, the prospect of perdition must be maintained (even if as the "impossible possibility," à la Karl Barth) for the drama to look serious; another, perhaps, is that the prospect of "salvation for all" begs the even more groundshaking question "salvation from what?"
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Perry
its obvious that if there were a god, he would judge by the heart, not timing.
The heart is wicked; it has a sin nature. We can be absolutely thankful that God does not judge by the heart. God will judge us by our spoken words. This seems fair.
And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee - Jesus
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved - Romans 10:9
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Perry
begs the even more groundshaking question "salvation from what?"
This question reminds me of one time when I was in a car group and the Presiding Overseer got in and told us about an experience he just had with a born again Christian. He said that he slammed the household with the question: Saved from what? Every one in the car was amused at the simplistic brillance of the P. O. and just laughed.
Exactly like atheists, JW's believe that when you die...that's it....no judgment. They even believe that if ever you do "awake" it will be with a clean slate.....having atoned for your own sin by simply dying. Paradise. This of course is a lie from hell.
Jesus paints a very different picture of those that die with an unpaid sin debt:
According to Terry Watkins at Dial-the-Truth Ministries:
There are over 162 references in the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) which warn of Hell.
Over 70 of these references are attributed to Jesus.
According to the gospels, Jesus spoke more on Hell than on any other subject.
Matt 23:33 Jesus says, "Snakes! Sons of vipers! (Pharisees) How will you escape the Judgment of HELL?"
Matt 25:29-30 Jesus says, "To those who use well what they are given, even more will be given, and they will have an abundance. But from those who do nothing, even what little they have will be taken away. Now throw this useless servant into outer darkness, where there will be WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH."
Matt 25:41 Jesus says, "Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the Eternal Fire (HELL) prepared for the Devil and His Demons.
Matt 25:46 Jesus says, "And they will go away into Eternal Punishment (HELL), but the righteous will go into eternal life."
Mark 9:43-48 Jesus says, "If your HAND causes you to SIN, cut it off. It's better to enter Eternal Life with only one hand than to go into the UNQUENCHABLE FIRE OF HELL with two hands. ... If your FOOT causes you to SIN, cut it off. It's better to enter Eternal Life with only one foot than to be THROWN INTO HELL with two feet... And if your EYE causes you to SIN, gouge it out. It's better to enter the Kingdom of God with only one eye than to have two eyes and be THROWN INTO HELL, ‘where the MAGGOTS NEVER DIE and the FIRE NEVER GOES OUT.'
Luke 6:24-26 Jesus says, "What SORROWS AWAITS YOU who are RICH, for you have your only Happiness now. What SORROWS AWAITS YOU who are FAT & PROSPEROUS now, for a time of AWFUL HUNGER awaits you. What SORROWS AWAITS YOU who LAUGH NOW, for YOUR LAUGHING WILL TURN TO MOURNING AND SORROW. What SORROWS AWAITS YOU who are PRAISED BY THE CROWDS, for their Ancestors also Praised FALSE PROPHETS."
Luke 12:5 Jesus says, "I'll tell you whom to Fear. Fear God, who has the power to kill you and then THROWN INTO HELL. Yes, he's the one to Fear."
Matt 10:28 Jesus says, "Don't be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both SOUL AND BODY IN HELL."
Luke 16:19-31 Jesus says in (Luke 16:23-24 only), "His Soul (Rich Man) went to the place of the dead. There, in TORMENT, he saw Abraham in the far distance with Lazarus at his side. "The rich man shouted, ‘Father Abraham, have some Pity! Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. I am in anguish in these flames...."
Matt 13:41-43 Jesus says about Himself: "The Son of Man (Jesus) will send His Angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes Sin and all who do Evil. And the Angels will throw them into the Fiery Furnace, where there will be WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH. Then the Righteous will shine like the sun in their Father's Kingdom."
Matt 13:49-50 Jesus says, "That is the way it will be at the End of the World. The Angels will come and separate the Wicked people from the Righteous, throwing the Wicked into the FIERY FURNACE, where there will be WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH."
This is why Jesus went to hell for three days when he died. He suffered hell in our place so that we wouldn't have to go there ourselves. God is infinite, both in his love and in his punishment. Since we are finite, we cannot fully grasp either one. But that doesn't mean that they are any less real.
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Narkissos
Which makes me think: if "salvation" logically depends on the actuality (not mere possibility) of "perdition," then who is actually paying the "ransom"? One who spent a couple of days in "hell" (which he could as well call "Paradise," but let's not digress) or all those who spend eternity there?
Sounds closer to the theology of Proverbs (21:18): "The wicked is a ransom for the righteous, and the faithless for the upright."
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Perry
Excellent OT scripture quotation....... Fulfilled here:
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. - 1 Cor. 5:21
This is the biblical doctrine of substitution. The legal exchange that is made between the believer and Jesus is quite clear in this scripture. Jesus takes on our wickedness; he becomes it. The believer trades places with the sacrifical lamb. Jesus dies/suffers in the place of the believer and the believer receives the spirit of God in the re-birth...thus providing a real and tangible basis for the declaration of being pronounced righteous ...because the believer does in fact possess something inside that is incapable of sin, that being the Spirit of God. There is no guess work as to who gets saved. It is all very neat and legal.
This is why the WT spin on the ransom being the only reason for Christs death is so critical in deceiving people. It prevents people from entering into a contractural relationship with God because they don't see one offered in the WT explanation. The word "testament" means "contract".
This is also why born again believers seem a little odd in their salvific certitude to unbelievers and to the simply religious. They have a contract in hand backed by no greater authority than God's own blood no less. They also have the second witness of "the Holy Spirit inside, who bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God."
There are only a couple of things that will void the contract offered by God in the New Testament (New Contract). Looking to another Mediator; or Jesus and someone(thing) else is the primary way people have their contracts with God that they think they have rejected. The exclusivity of Jesus' office was dramatically illustrated in Numbers Ch. 16.
Other than that, it is a pretty simple procedure to avoid Hell.
