It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, SOME TO BE EVANGELISTS!

by Chalam 41 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Perry

  HOW does one come to repentance? Is it just something you do - yourself? Or is it by the convicting power of the Holy Spirit?

  For me... I prayed that God would make me hate sin. I prayed that prayer for 2 to 3 months. My father, a longtime JW gave a strong talking to me on the Judgment of God (Armageddon in his mind) one night. Almost immediately I came under strong conviction from the Holy Spirit. I detested sin after that.

  I became a Witness shortly after that and was baptized within 6 months. I remained under the supernatural conviction of sin during my Regular pioneering and my entire 8 years as a witness. In all, 17 years passed between when I was convicted of sin and when I truly repented and received Christ as MY Lord...as opposed to anyone or anything else.

  Conviction is stressful. Peace comes after salvation when the believer is inhabited by the Holy Spirit. Just agreeing with God wasn't enough for me to truly repent. It required a total act of turning my welfare, destiny, and self over to the Lord.

  I died with a bottle of whiskey in one hand and a fist in the other. I finally repented and gave the Lord the steering wheel.

  Chalam is also correct. Both forces are definitely at work ...as it should be.
• 

  Chalam

  John 3: 5-8:

  Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

  Very good, you are answering the issue Perry has brought up in the same way as I did but with another excellent passage!

  Born again - before salvation or after?

  Neither, one is born again at the point of salvation. One is spiritually dead in ones sins pre salvation and comes spiritually alive when we receive the "guarantee" of our salvation, the Holy Spirit at the time we are saved.

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  Sad emo

  Romans 8: 29-30

  For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

  Note the order - calling then justification.

  Back on topic anyways (!) Its amazing what is happening in Afica, even through so much political trouble. I'm happy for those folks and pray that they hold fast to their faith.
• 

  Chalam

  Hi,

  Predestination, impossible to resolve this with freewill unless you have the mind of God.

  Predestination (Calvinism) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  For me, its in the bible so I believe it. I see it on most pages too.

  This verse I need some revelation regarding

  Matthew 22:14 (King James Version)

  14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

  All the best, Stephen
• 

  Sad emo

  Perry:

  Almost immediately I came under strong conviction from the Holy Spirit. I detested sin after that.

  So would you say that this was the point of regeneration then? You got that change of attitude to sin - and then you repented. Do you see the point I'm trying to make now, that salvation (I mean a heartfelt, full grasp of it) is impossible without that initial conviction/regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

  Stephen

  Neither, one is born again at the point of salvation. One is spiritually dead in ones sins pre salvation and comes spiritually alive when we receive the "guarantee" of our salvation, the Holy Spirit at the time we are saved.

  I understand your viewpoint. I don't think we'll ever get the precise order of salvation - but hey, we're saved! I differ in that as I just replied to Perry, I believe we are regenerated/born again before becoming saved through repentance (maybe only a split second between them though lol!). I suppose I would say the Holy Spirit's calling is the beginning of our salvation.

  I need sleep now so if this discussion continues I haven't 'done a runner'! I'll check back tomorrow... erm tonight!

  Blessings and peace to y'all
• 

  Perry

  Chalam,

  Let's look at this statement:

  Re generation by the HOLY SPIRIT is essential for personal salvation.

  Being regenerated by the Holy Spirit as a requisite for entering the Kingdom of God is not the same as a requisite for Salvation. Jesus is the door, not the Holy Spirit.

  I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold , but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber...Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. - Jn.10: 1-7

  Had the statement of faith said that regeneration preceded entrance into the Kingdom of God, I would not have a problem. But, that is not what it says.

  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

  - 1 Tim. 2: 5
• 

  Chalam

  Hi Perry,

  I still don't know if you are really getting who the Holy Spirit is?

  Romans 8:9-11 (New International Version)

  9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

  9-Those living by the Holy Spirit have God living inside them. The same Spirit is the "Spirit of Christ".

  10-This agrees with 9, Christ is inside those who believe. They are alive (are born again) because of Christ's righteousness.

  11-This agree with 9 & 10. The Holy Spirit is living inside the believer.

  Nice the see the Trinity in these verses! 9-Father God, 10-Son, Jesus and 11-Spirit-Holy Spirit all living inside us.

  OK this Being regenerated by the Holy Spirit as a requisite for entering the Kingdom of God is not the same as a requisite for Salvation.

  Is not entering the Kingdom of God not the same as being saved?

  Anyhow, I am not meaning to be contentious, just checking some doctrinal points you have raised.

  I gotta crash now too-early start tomorrow.

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  Perry

  The example from the Moses in the OT was that Moses was the mediator, agreed. However, Christ is the mediator for us all in the New Covenant now right?

  Yes Chalam. But many expect salvation in the name of Jesus PLUS the Pope, Mary...or PLUS the WT organization... or PLUS the reinstituted Priesthood of the Latter Day Saints (Mormons). The drama played out in Numbers Ch. 16 is about the exclusiveness of God's anointed, previously Moses and Aaron and now the person of Jesus Christ. In the case of the former, the contract that allowed for the circumvention of the death penalty through the vicarious killing of animals in the place of sinners was cancelled for those that tried to alter it.

  These things were written for our benefit, we who are living in the end times. The drama in Numbers Ch. 16 isn't so much about "gross sin" as it is about trying to modify the parties of the contracts that God has offered; first through the hand of Moses and later by Jesus Christ.

  My contract for salvation is exclusively with Jesus Christ according to what I read in the scriptures. Based on the outcome of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, I would not want to link my salvation to anyone else....even the Holy Spirit.

  "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - John 3:18

  Be it known unto you all... that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth ...there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. - Acts 4: 10-12

  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

  - Galatians 1: 8

  I have learned to read the fine print in business documents. I should treat God's offer as no different. I am not saying that God would for sure have a problem with that statement of faith.... but he might and I wouldn't want to chance it myself.

  Good Night....thank you for your faith. Please give us your testimony sometime. I'd like to hear it.
• 

  Perry

  Sad Emo !! Praise the Lord God Almighty you are saved.

  So would you say that this was the point of regeneration then?

  For many years, I thought that they were the same event because it was so dramatic the way God answered my prayer. I can definitely now say that my supernatural conviction of sin WAS NOT the moment of my salvation or regeneration. I think that for some folks it may actually all happen kinda at the same time..... like at a church service. However, what I was lacking was a full confession of Jesus as my exclusive Lord and Savior. I didn't have all the pieces of the contract having been raised as a 4th generation witness.

  You got that change of attitude to sin - and then you repented. Do you see the point I'm trying to make now, that salvation (I mean a heartfelt, full grasp of it) is impossible without that initial conviction/regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

  Yes, I agree. But I really believe that the order is: conviction, confession, regeneration.

  Our pastor tells the story of a man whom he saw in church one time who was clutching the chair in front of him and shaking. The man was under deep conviction of the Holy Spirit. The pastor was asking that if there was anyone there at that service that did not know the Lord Jesus Christ as his personal Lord to simply make a confession and receive the assurance of the Holy Spirit. The pastor lingered on and on with the offer. The man never confessed. The next day the man entered eternity through the front end of an 80,000 lb. logging truck.

  I believe that the Lord calls sinners through the agency of conviction/repentance. I believe that the ones that are chosen are all who decide to acknowledge Jesus Christ as their exclusive Lord and Savior. The contract is a blood covenant requiring the death of ALL Signatories. This is why there cannot other parties to the agreement, not even the Holy Spirit. Jesus died in your place, carrying your sin with him into hell.....where it belongs. The sinner dies to himself at the rebirth. No one (not even God) can/will force the sinner to make the intermediate step .... the receiving of Christ as Lord. (BTW, I believe this is also the answer to the Calvinism/Arminian debate.)

  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name [Jesus] - John 1:12
• 

  PrimateDave

  They must have made a tidy profit with those large crowds. One thing for sure, the gods never pay the bills. Like governments, they just help redistribute wealth.

  Dave