Redemption, Reductions

by Narkissos 48 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Narkissos

  koiné

  The definitions of "faith" might be worth another thread.

  All I can say is that my exit from the WT (a long time ago) was inseparable from a personal re-definition of faith as antithetical to things such as security, guarantee, warranty, evidence, certainty... and also responsibility(re: ql, fortunately I could see your post and even found some connection, lol;-))): this makes me think of the frequent Gospel portraying of negative characters refraining from an immediate, spontaneous response to Jesus because they calculate the consequences.

  I since found some interesting echo to that in the work of theologian Eberhard Jüngel (Gott als Geheimnis der Welt, God as Mystery of the World), and his category of "interruption" (of security, etc.).

  Which means that the whole attitude of "checking" and worrying about "where the road leads," "where all this will end up," "what will be the consequences," all of which is not only a sensible thing to do, but the basic rule in everyday life, has nothing to do with faith.

  By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to set out for a place that he was to receive as an inheritance; and he set out, not knowing where he was going.

  (And I think Jüngel is quite right in focusing on the relationship of this kind of responsive "faith" with love and pointing to the deeply erotic character of the whole structure.)
• 

  Koiné

  Hallo Narkissos,

  For most of the time (and I am following your posts already for years) I can agree with you.

  Question is,let us suppose you have children,or you are leading a bible study group,what is the basic teaching you are giving them,and when are they well or enough prepared to handle the questions with no (or too much answers).

  And please,start another tread about faith its defenitions and implications.

  Greetings from Belgium
• 

  Narkissos

  Koiné,

  I wouldn't teach anybody what to believe.

  Especially not my children -- I do have one. I read on another thread how having children led several posters to reassess their religious stance in various ways: that happened to me as well. In fact I had been asked to help in teaching catechism in a (fairly liberal) Protestant church when my daughter was about to be born (12 years ago now) and I suddenly realised I wouldn't want her to be taught in a confessional setting at all. I dropped attending church at that time (apart from exceptional occasions).

  The best I can do is exposing the texts I have read (Biblical or other), pointing to their similarities and differences as I perceived them; of course this might deter some from believing any particular simplification-reduction of "Bible teaching," and I gladly accept this (ir-)responsibility. But I wouldn't overevaluate it either: in practice, people believe what they want (or perhaps need) to believe. Sometimes it may just help people not to yield too easily to the pressure of believing things that do not really suit them but they might feel constrained to believe because of shallow, sophistic rhetorics.

  I don't claim a neutral position either. I do have a personal interest (and trajectory) in and out of religion, and to that extent there is a dimension of "testimony" in what I write (like everybody else I suppose). But it doesn't apply exactly to anyone else, although it can be partly significant to a few (and completely unsignificant to most).
• 

  quietlyleaving

  narkissos

  (And I think Jüngel is quite right in focusing on the relationship of this kind of responsive "faith" with love and pointing to the deeply erotic character of the whole structure.)

  wow I think this is echoed in Goethe's Faust and it makes sense in that respect. Gretchen lost herself in her love for Faust thereby redeeming him (at the end of act1) but there is a play on the German words for atonment and judgment leaving the outcome ambiguous

  edit: also (I'm on a rolll now) Jesus said something similar - the one who loses himself will find himself - or something like that
• 

  Koiné

  Narkissos,

  Is this not in contradiction with Jesus command to go ,teach and baptise?

  My son is 23 and I hope he is going to be baptised as a Christian.

  But to be baptised you have to be member of a community or church(with their theological system again).

  Here in Belgium there is only choice between JW,Christadelfian,and evangelistic (all with their system of beliefs)

  Btw have you been rebaptised after your JW episode? or is this a valid baptism according to you?

  To be (re)baptised or not,that is the question.

  Greetings
• 

  Narkissos

  the one who loses himself will find himself - or something like that

  And the other way round. Too bad the profound irony of this aphorism (heightened through the ambiguity of psukhè -- "his life" / "his soul") is so often lost on those who want to be saved ! ;-) (Same for "the first will be the last" and a few others).

  koiné

  Is this not in contradiction with Jesus command to go ,teach and baptise?

  Probably. That's why I don't claim the "Christian" label anymore. However, after nearly 2,000 years of doing that even Christians might pause a little to think. :)

  Here in Belgium there is only choice between JW,Christadelfian,and evangelistic (all with their system of beliefs)

  There are many others (Catholic, mainstream Protestant [EPUB] for instance) but you probably have not "seen" them yet ;)

  Btw have you been rebaptised after your JW episode? or is this a valid baptism according to you?

  No. But a friend of mine (who was df'd at the same time) was, in a Baptist church.

  Don't worry. You'll make your mind when you need to.
• 

  Warlock

  The Second Adam does NOT come to restore what might have been "before the Fall" (in the WT paradigm: earthly, etc. BUT NOT sinful and mortal, mankind

  nark,

  Sorry it took so long to get back to this thread.

  Colossians 1:19,20. In verse 20 he says "........and through him (Christ) to reconcile AGAIN to himself all other things......."

  Doesn't this indicate a restoration?

  If not, then what is he talking about?

  Warlock
• 

  Narkissos

  Warlock,

  My comment was strictly limited to the Adam/Jesus parallels in 1 Corinthians 15 and, in a slightly different way, Romans 5.

  Colossians (not necessarily the same author) represents both the "problem" and the "solution" in a very different way: no Adam (no general human "sin," no devil, either): but a cosmical disorder (the ruling "powers" responsible for the entire "world," including Israel and the Law, gone wild) resulting in general strife, division, antagonism (including between Jews and Gentiles) and alienation from God. The text belongs to an early "Gnostic" trajectory.

  Here Christ saves because he represents the pre-cosmical and supra-cosmical, really divine order beyond the disorder (the "fullness, plèrôma, of deity,' 1:15ff) (re-)conquering the "world" by ripping the power of its "rulers" (including the Law) from them on the cross (chapter 2). The reconciliation of Jews and Gentiles in the church is the visible sign of this "cosmical reconciliation" in Christ which only awaits for manifestation (chapter 3).

  It's a fascinating text but it's a completely different story, although the basic plot already appears in Paul, 1 Corinthians 2,8; another, less "cosmical" and more "ecclesiastical" retelling of the Colossians version is found in Ephesians.

  We can only read what the texts actually say inasmuch as we set them free from the "patchwork" picture we have learned (and don't hurry to lock them again into another).
• 

  Narkissos

  Interesting supplement to this discussion in Cellist's thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/175637/1/Food-for-thought-on-the-Ransom-Sacrifice