so they never claimed to be an inspired prophet?

by ninja 189 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    *** g93 3/22 p. 4 Why So Many False Alarms? ***

    Never did they say, 'These are the words of Jehovah.'

    And yet:

    "MR. ARTHUR GOUX. I will answer that, sir, by merely pointing to the fact that this publication [a Rutherford book] is not an expression of any human opinion. REP. JOHN Y. BROWN. It is written by Judge Rutherford, is it not? MR. GOUX. So is the Bible written by man, but by arrangement of the Great Creator in the expression of his purpose. MR. BROWN. That is right. Now did the Great Creator arrange with Judge Rutherford to write those books and sell them for $2.50 for 10? MR. GOUX. The information set forth in those books will speak for itself and it may be discerned by anyone who desires to understand the facts that it is not human opinion" (Testimony of Arthur Goux, secretary of the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society,16 March 1934, "Radio Broadcasting," Hearings Before the Committee on Merchant Marine, Radio, and Fisheries, House of Representatives, 73rd Congress Second Session, on H.R. 7986, 1934, pp. 70-76).

    "Jehovah in his own good way and in his own time conveys his message to his servants. He even uses members of the enemy organization at times to speak words for the benefit of the anointed servant class. It would be an easy matter for Jehovah to cause his angel to put in the mind of a member of the enemy organization the words that he would have him to speak, and then cause him to utter those words to the intent that God's faithful ones might hear them....The angels are God's messengers, whom he uses to carry out his purpose....The question has been foolishly propounded: 'Does the Watchtower serve as a medium of instruction for the angels?' Certainly not. Without a doubt the Lord uses his angels to cause the truth to be published in The Watchtower, and the faithful followers of Christ Jesus who hear and give heed to the message of truth from the Lord and render obedience thereto" (Watchtower, 1 February 1935, p. 41)

    "JEHOVAH causes men to have dreams or visions and in this way speaks to men and causes them to understand. Jehovah's devoted people now having his expression of will set forth in the Scriptures do not need to be informed by means of dreams, but that is no reason to say that God cannot do so if such should be his will. In the earlier days of men Jehovah did speak to those devoted to him by way of dreams or visions and thus instructed them.... Jehovah now discloses to the faithful remnant, who are with the Greater Gideon, what first must come to pass in the great day of God Almighty, and this he does for their encouragement and comfort and that their hope might be strengthened. Then the Lord used a second man to speak prophetic words there in the hearing of Gideon. 'And his fellow answered and said, This is nothing else save the sword of Gideon the son of Joash, a man of Israel: for into his hand hath God delivered Midian, and all the host.' (Judg. 7:14) That man described as the 'fellow' of the other man, being also of the enemy's army, would not be speaking willingly as the mouthpiece of Jehovah God, hence his words show that he was merely an automaton to give utterance to what God had caused to be injected into his mind and which God would have Gideon now to hear. That 'fellow' had no ability to interpret prophecy, but Jehovah's angel moved his lips to speak the interpretation. Is The Watchtower a means or channel employed by God to transmit information to his people? If God could use and did use one a stranger to Him, and one in the enemy’s camp, then with stronger reasoning he could and would transmit information to his people by that which is devoted to his service. In 1927 God began to reveal to his people the meaning of the dream had by Nebuchadnezzar. Thereafter, in August 1930, by and through the columns of The Watchtower God caused to be published the proper understanding of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar. As stepping stones gradually leading up to the understanding of the great image was the publication of the articles in The Watchtower to wit, 'The Winepress', September 1, 1926; 'The Stone in Zion', October 15, 1926. No man can properly interpret prophecy, and the Lord sends his angels to transmit correct information to his people, and when these truths come to his people and the facts fit the prophecy, then they should take it as from the Lord and receive it with rejoicing" (Watchtower, 15 February 1935, pp. 51-52).

    "These expressions of God's will by his King and through his established agency constitute his law or rule of action for the 'faithful and wise servant' and for their goodwill companions today who will dwell upon the earth for ever in the New World. The Lord breaks down our organization instructions further and makes them more practicable by futher instructing us through his 'faithful and wise servant'. He says, 'Let us assign the field, the world, to special pioneers, regular pioneers and companies of Jehovah's witnesses in an orderly way, sufficient for everyone to thoroughly witness therein, and let us place upon each one the responsibility for caring for the New World interests in these respective assignments.' He says the requirements for special pioneers shall be 175 hours and 50 back-calls per month, which should develop into a reasonable number of studies; and for regular pioneers 150 hours and as many back-calls and studies as can properly be developed during that time. And for the company publishers he says, 'Let us make a quota of 60 hours and 12 back-calls and at least one study a week for each publisher.' These directions come directly from the Lord through his established agency directing what is required of us; and, for those who really love the Lord and are guided by his counsel, that is a reasonable service requirement. This expression of the Lord's will should be the end of all controversy.....The Lord through his 'faithful and wise servant' now states to us, 'Let us cover our territory four times in six months.' That becomes our organization instructions and has the same binding force on us that his statement to the Logos had when he said, 'Let us make man in our image.' It is our duty to accept this additional instruction and obey it. But someone will say, 'The conditions are different. In the case of the Logos, he could accomplish what Jehovah commanded him to do; but when it comes to covering our territory four times in six months, that is out of all reason. We have never covered it more than once or, at the most, twice in six months. It just can't be done.' We have all heard that argument before. And if it were true it would look bad indeed, and would imply that the Lord was asking us to do something that is impossible for us to accomplish. The children of Israel walked around Jericho seven times the last day" (Watchtower, 1 April 1943, p. 203)

    "Q. Who subsequently became the Editor of hte magazine, the main editor of the 'Watch Tower' magazine? A. In 1931, October 15th, as I recall, the 'Watch Tower' discontinued publishing the names of any editorial committee on the second page. THE COURT: He asked you who became the editor. The Witness: And it said -- THE COURT: Who became the editor? Q. Who became the editor when this was discontinued? A. Jehovah God. Q. And who wrote the magazine under the direction of Almighty God? A. Various individuals contributed to the magazine, Judge Rutherford and others.... Q. Jehovah God is now the editor of the paper, is that right? A. He is today the editor of the paper" (Testimony of Fred W. Franz, 19 May 1943, Olin R. Moyle vs. Fred W. Franz et al., Kings County Clerk's Index No. 15845, pp. 795, 866).

    "Jehovah is the source of knowledge. When he speaks, all should listen and learn. And how does he speak? Through his appointed channel of communication -- his collective congregation of anointed ones.... As servants of Jehovah we desire to serve along with this channel of communication and aid in dispensing this information to others. During January we shall do this by extending to all the opportunity to subscribe for the Watchtower magazine, the main instrument used by the congregation to dispense Jehovah's communications" (Informant, January 1956, p. 1)

    "The whole body under the direction of the head moves and acts as a beautifully co-ordinated unit, perfectly organized. In the same way Christ, the Head, employs the organization that is his body to carry out his assigned work. His orders reach the whole of the organization on earth through the governing body, and on down through the Branches to the congregations. To hold to the headship of Christ, it is therefore necessary to obey the organization that he is personally directing. Doing what the organization says is to do what he says. Resisting the organization is to resist him" (Watchtower, 1 May 1959, p. 269)

  • wobble
    wobble

    Thankyou Ninja!

    And all who contribute on here,what a great thread to expose the untenable position the WT claims to hold!

    Love

    Wobble

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    You guys are getting confused over prophet and prophecy and are dates prophecy?

    For example Aaron was a prophet but there is no record of him predicting a future event. He communicated Jehovah's will to the people of Israel.

    John 21:22,23 Jesus said to him,“If I desire that he stay until I come, what is that to you? You follow me.” This saying therefore went out among the brothers , that this disciple wouldn’t die. Yet Jesus didn’t say to him that he wouldn’t die, but,“If I desire that he stay until I come, what is that to you?”

    So were the Apostles, who were chosen by Jesus himself, false prophets? Or did they make a MISTAKE in interpreting what Jesus told them?

    they were clearly forgiven this mistake of this interpretation as was thessalonica's thinking Jesus was coming then too.

    In the end armageddon is a bible prophecy and Jesus coming is a bible prophecy but intepreting when or how they happen isn't prophecy but we are still to be working on being in readiness for these to happen and have to read the prophetic signs which again are given by the bible for us to look out for.

    If they were declaring something other than Jesus coming or armegeddon they would be false prophets which is why christendom is in trouble because they preach immortal soul death as a gateway to Jesus's promise rather than armageddon and Jesus's coming again.

    If you tell me armageddon isn't going to happen and Jesus isn't going to come to you are prophecying something other than what the bible teaches.

    majorie saying you are Jesus or someone is Jesus is what that scripture is refering too, it is not refering to Jesus himself and his coming but that there would be specifically false Jesus's declaring themselves or being premoted by others.

    Again I say the worst that can be said of Jehovah's witnesses is that their intepretation has been at fault and they have been presumptious on dates but this is not making up a whole new prophecy because they only ever refer to bible prophecies like armegeddon and Jesus coming.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Again I say the worst that can be said of Jehovah's witnesses is that their intepretation has been at fault and they have been presumptious on dates but this is not making up a whole new prophecy because they only ever refer to bible prophecies like armegeddon and Jesus coming.

    Ummm, where exactly in the Bible is 1914? Remember, the "Creators promise of a peaceful new world before the generation that sees the events of 1914 completely passes away?"

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    wrong dates for bible prophecy is not prophecy, at worst it is wrongful reading of signs but since we are told to watch for the signs and act accordingly we are bound to look for them.

    Luke 12:42-46 (New International Version)

    42 The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44 I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But suppose the servant says to himself, 'My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

    My reply....we are bound to misinterpet and plug in dates? Your verse quoted simply says to keep on the watch. That is quite possible without plugging in ridiculous dates as the WT has continuously done. Go try Acts 1 on for size:

    When they had gathered together they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going 4 to restore the kingdom to Israel?"

    7

    5 He answered them, "It is not for you to know the times or seasons that the Father has established by his own authority.

    8

    Doesn't sound like we are bound to do what you claim Reniaa.

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    to be more clear

    Non JW try to pigeonhole a 'prophet" into the role of a predictor. This allows them to point at JW failed attempts at Chronology, and point out where mistakes have been made. This is convienent because this allows the anti-JW to immediatly reject all things from teh WTS based on a label.

    Ezekiel 3:16-20

    16 At the end of seven days the word of the LORD came to me: 17 "Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. 18 When I say to a wicked man,'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for [a] his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.
    20 "Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself."

    No prediction there just speaking out a warning about impending judgement.

    However, they never claimed to make prophecy. They have never claimed they are inspired prophets either.

    One function of a prophet is to warn others. Ezekiel and Jeremiah warned of impending judgement. JW do this as well, by acting as "watchman" in the same way Ezekiel was given this role. JW warn of impending Armegeddon (which is after all a biblical teaching)and the destruction of false religion (from the JW point of view of course).

    In that way they act as prophets. Is the idea that a prophet can be a prophet without having the gift of prophesying about the future grounded in scripture?

    Judges 6:7-10

    And it came about that because the sons of Israel called to Jehovah for aid on account of Mid´i·an, 8 Jehovah proceeded to send a man, a prophet, to the sons of Israel and to say to them: "This is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said,'It was I who brought YOU up from Egypt and thus brought YOU out of the house of slaves. 9 So I delivered YOU out of the hand of Egypt and out of the hand of all YOUR oppressors and drove them out from before YOU and gave YOU their land. 10 Furthermore, I said to YOU: "I am Jehovah YOUR God. YOU must not fear the gods of the Am´or·ites in whose land YOU are dwelling." And YOU did not listen to my voice.'"

    Where did this prophet make a prediction? Was he not still called a prophet? A prophet literally means in greek "a speaker out".

    Is a prophets role always limited to one of a predictor?

    Lets look at some more scripture

    Is prophesying always a prediction? Or could it be providing a warning? OR announcing things from a divine origin (teh Bible)

    Look how it is described in the Bible and tell me if you see a "prophet"limited to a predictor here

    1 Corinthians 14:3-4

    3But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

    1 Corinthians 14:24-25

    24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand[h]comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"

    1 Corinthians 14:31

    31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.

    you may not agree with the interpretation but that is all you can say.

    the two things the JW warn about are destruction of false religion, and Armegeddon. According to the Bible, not just JW, those are impending.

    the strength of understanding is in the bible scripture thats why I use bible when looking at these issues and only view the wt as a useful but un-inspired tool of our leaders that itself is to encourage and to direct us to bible prophecy, guidance and scripture.

    this constant need of anti-Jw's to become wt quoters, many times not using the whole article and just posting well chosen out-of context snippets hides their true weakness which is a lack of bible usage.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Reniaa says:

    However, they never claimed to make prophecy.

    They have never claimed they are inspired prophets either.

    My reply: False- refer to the 4/1/72 WT

    One function of a prophet is to warn others. Ezekiel and Jeremiah warned of impending judgement. JW do this as well, by acting as "watchman" in the same way Ezekiel was given this role. JW warn of impending Armegeddon (which is after all a biblical teaching)and the destruction of false religion (from the JW point of view of course).

    My reply: JWs do not go anywhere in the same class as Jeremiah or Ezekiel. Everything the prophets stated came true. The WT has a ZERO percentage in their message as far as accuracy. Nothing they have taught regarding their supposed warnings has come true. It is also another gospel...not the one Paul preached of Jesus death and resurrection and repentance thru him.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    you may not agree with the interpretation but that is all you can say.

    the two things the JW warn about are destruction of false religion, and Armegeddon. According to the Bible, not just JW, those are impending.

    My reply: destrcution of false relgion and Armageddon are in the Bible. Whosesale destruction of all nonJWs is not. (Actually JWs would be a part of false relgion LOL)

    the strength of understanding is in the bible scripture thats why I use bible when looking at these issues and only view the wt as a useful but un-inspired tool of our leaders that itself is to encourage and to direct us to bible prophecy, guidance and scripture.

    My reply: Useful??? For what? Encouraging not getting an education? Not saving? Not pursuing a carreer and using one's skills? Cashing out on life insurance policies to live out the remaining few months of this system? Putting off surgeries? Putting off marriage and kids? The WT does not direct its members to bible prophecy, guidance or scripture. They dictate their members to their own self-serving mandates. You may want to read Raymond Franz' first hand account of the operation of the GB- you would learn alot. Especially that the Bible had relatively no role in the decision-making process of the GB

    this constant need of anti-Jw's to become wt quoters, many times not using the whole article and just posting well chosen out-of context snippets hides their true weakness which is a lack of bible usage.

    My reply: Not antiJW...antiWT...the leadership of the cult. We use the WT because that, not the Bible, is the main, just about entire, structure of the JW beliefs and the only one who takes things out of context is the WT writers in quoting other sources.

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    isaac foolishness on dates is not prophecy and all you can show are scriptures to warn against setting dates which is fair enough, will Jw's need to be refined beyond dates? probably just like the apostles had to understand that one of their members wasn't going to live undying until Jesus came.

    What I consider worse is if we abandon our direction to warn others of God's impending predictions, the appostles always treated bible prophecy as impending and so not to get to involved with the everyday things of life, this hasn't changed. the scriptures still show we must keep warning and exhorting till these prediction prophecies from God actually happen.

    making a prophecy other than armageddon or destruction of false religion is one thing but dates is not prophecy but eagerness warned against as you say.

    If you go back on my older posts you will find I have never disagreed on this and personally await Jw's growing beyond dates which I think is happening gradually as they get refined but I will never agree that putting dates on actual bible prophecy is prophecy in itself since the bible does not say this. A False prophet is saying something different to armageddon or destruction of false religion or Jesus coming in fact teaching an alternate message like immortality of the soul or trinity etc things that are unbiblical.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    isaac foolishness on dates is not prophecy and all you can show are scriptures to warn against setting dates which is fair enough, will Jw's need to be refined beyond dates? probably just like the apostles had to understand that one of their members wasn't going to live undying until Jesus came.

    My reply: The Wt error on dates, which you have now admitted does not compare to the apostles asking Jesus a simple question. The GB does not ask questions. They publish on a global scale AND DEMAND that all members accept and preach what they interpret- regardless if one can or can not conscienciously accept it or not. This in itself is a sin on the part of the WT:

    Rom 14:23

    23
    But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because this is not from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin. 5

    Speaking of eating but the principle is applicable in all areas.

    What I consider worse is if we abandon our direction to warn others of God's impending predictions, the appostles always treated bible prophecy as impending and so not to get to involved with the everyday things of life, this hasn't changed. the scriptures still show we must keep warning and exhorting till these prediction prophecies from God actually happen.

    My reply: Laying of dates does not mean abandoning. Admitting we do not know when the end will come does not mean abandoning. The apostles did not say not to get involved in the everyday things of life- the WT did. The apostles preached not to make them first in your life. Again, the gospel Paul preached...

    This is the Gospel Paul preached:

    1 Cor 15

    1
    1 2 Now I am reminding you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you indeed received and in which you also stand.
    2
    Through it you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
    3
    3 For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures;
    4
    that he was buried; that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures;

    It was not a 'warning work' or some sort of prophecy that he decided to try to interpret and run with for self-serving purposes as the WT has done. The JWs preach a different gospel. Gal 1:8 is applicable to them indeed.

    making a prophecy other than armageddon or destruction of false religion is one thing but dates is not prophecy but eagerness warned against as you say.

    My reply: eagerness would not be an accurate word...more like an attempt at justification. Arrogant, presumptuous are words that come to mind.

    If you go back on my older posts you will find I have never disagreed on this and personally await Jw's growing beyond dates which I think is happening gradually as they get refined but I will never agree that putting dates on actual bible prophecy is prophecy in itself since the bible does not say this. A False prophet is saying something different to armageddon or destruction of false religion or Jesus coming in fact teaching an alternate message like immortality of the soul or trinity etc things that are unbiblical.

    My reply: The Wt is not distancing themselves from dates due to refining. It is due to them all failing. They do not have God's Spirit to refine them.

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