To reiterate:
PROPHECY does not just mean foretelling the future, but making any utterance under divine inspiration, or simply teaching from the scriptures.
PROPHETS are those who do ANY of the above.
HB
so they never claimed to be an inspired prophet?
by ninja 189 Replies latest watchtower bible
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reniaa
hi hamsterbait and majorie your viewpoints are interesting but just that! your viewpoint they are not scripture. You are making leaps not supported by context of the scripture which specifically points to people claiming to be Jesus christ himself because the bible predicts his return.
hamsterbait JWs have never claimed inspiration only spirit guidance.
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Olin Moyles Ghost
Just checked on this thread...seven pages already...wow.
In the past, I was surprised at the "logic" used by some JWs to justify the false prophecies of their religious leaders--especially their tortured, twisted, convoluted definition of the term "prophecy." It's absurdly simple--if you predict something in God's name, then you're a prophet. If you're wrong, then you're a false prophet. (Deut. 18:20-22). Not too complicated. So, I wondered, how in the world could WT/JW believers doggedly defend their religious leaders in spite of the facts? It puzzled me.
But then I remembered something about human nature, and the power of a strongly-held belief. It doesn't matter that it's patently absurd. What matters is the strength of belief. You know, there are people out there that will argue the following "facts" for days and cannot be convinced otherwise:
- that the earth is flat (yes, there are some people today who still believe this)
- that cigarettes don't really cause cancer
- that the planet earth is only 6,000 years old
- that seatbelts cause more harm than good
- that the moon landing was faked
In other words, some people simply don't have the intelligence, humility, and/or honest-heartedness to face up to the facts. Nowhere is this more prevalent than in the area of religion. But that's the way it has always been, and it will be that way for the rest of our lives...time to move on. If some wish to remain deluded, allow them to remain that way.
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Hobo Ken
>Reniaa
You fixate on the idea of date setting not being False prophesying.
You ask for scriptures to show that date setting and false prophecy are condemned. You are given scriptures by Iknowall which if you were able to reason you would KNOW that they applied to the wts.
Acts1:7.It is not for you to know the times and dates which the father has set.
Do you need this spelled out for you?
Russel and Rutherford said they DID KNOW the times and the dates. They said Jesus came in 1874 and eagerly shared their falsehoods with anyone who would listen for more than 70 years!!!!
Luke 21 : 8 Look out you are not misled, for many will come on the basis of my name, saying "I am he" and "The due time has approached."
I will spell this out for you too.
The wtbts have stated that they speak in "the basis" of Jesus name and said that among other things that "the due time has approached" in 1914 , 1915, 1917,1925, 1975, etc etc.
Forget that it's dates mentioned there and focus on the "do not be misled" bit that guy Jesus was warning about. Did they mislead people?
Absolutely they did.
Duet 18 :20-22 Clearly states that anyone speaking in God's name something demonstrably false would die . Not dates for Bible events just things which were said in God's name and proved to be false.
Have the wts said things in "God's name"?
Lots of people have posted here showing the wts have done just that ."the creators promise that the 1914 generation would not die out before the end" is a good one. somthing which they have embarassingly had to change. They said it in God's name. It was a Lie.
What about Jesus own warning regarding False prophets?
Matt 7:21. "by their fruits" The fruitage of a false prophet is false prophecies.
Whose word would you accept that the wts are false prohets? Us on this forum?
How about the Vice president of the Watctower society? Below is the court transcript from the Walsh case in Scotland 1954. (go on Google it...)
Q. You have studied the literature of your movement?
A. Yes, but not all of it. I have not studied the seven volumes of "Studies in the Scriptures," and I have not studied this matter that you are mentioning now of 1874. I am not at all familiar with that.
Q. Assume from me that it was promulgated as authoritative by the Society that Christ's Second Coming was in 1874?
A. Taking that assumption as a fact, it is a hypothetical statement.
Q. That was the publication of false prophesy?
A. That was the publication of a false prophesy, it was a false statement or an erronious statement in fulfilment of a prophesy that was false or erroneous.
Q. And that had to be believed by the whole of Jehovah's Witnesses?
A. Yes, because you must understand we must have unity, we cannot have disunity with a lot of people going every way, an army is supposed to march in step.
Q. You do not believe in the worldly armies, do you?
A. We believe in the Christian Army of God.
Q. Do you believe in the worldly armies?
A. We have nothing to say about that, we do not preach against them, we merely say that the worldly armies, like the nations of the world today, are a part of Satan's Organization, and we do not take part in them, but we do not say the nations cannot have their armies, we do not preach against warfare, we are merely claiming our exemption from it, that is all.
Q. Back to the point now. A false prophesy was promulgated?
A. I agree that.
Q. It had to be accepted by Jehovah's Witnesses?
A. That is correct.
So Reniaa....... Are they false prophets or not?
I think so, don't you?
One false prophecy or "fruit" hanging on the figurative tree according to Jesus meant that the "tree" was rotten. It's IMPOSSIBLE to have a " tree" as you claim with "imperfect tools" as you quaintly refer to your publications, which are ROTTEN TO THE CORE, hanging there on a perfect tree (God's organisation)
It just does not work!!!!!!!!
You also say:-
"when you start teaching a message that isn't in the bible like trinity or immortality of soul etc then you are a false prophet"
lmao. The wtbts have taught loads of things that are actually CONTARY to what the Bible says. So your own admission above also condemns them as being false prophets.
It is getting quite tedious watching you melt.
H.K.
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hamsterbait
Ren - AGAIN you are lying! What I just posted a few moments ago are the definitions used in the WT literature.
But then your actions show that you don't believe what "THE LEADERS OF MY RELIGION" as you put it say.
However you are now reading the Bible on its own and referencing it for yourself, deciding for YOURSELF how to apply scriptures. Excellent - that is what the Bible students did in the late 1860s.
Can you point to one thing in the JW beliefs that you think is outright WRONG? Are you humble enough????
HB
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hamsterbait
The 2nd paragraph of the entry "prophecy" in the Insight book quotes the same example about "prophecy" implying extraordinary knowledge although not about the future:
Illustrating the sense of the original words are these examples:
When Ezekiel in a vision was told to "prophesy to the wind," he simply expressed God’s command to the wind. (Eze 37:9, 10) When individuals at Jesus’ trial covered him, slapped him, and then said, "Prophesy to us, you Christ. Who is it that struck you?" they were not calling for prediction but for Jesus to identify the slappers by divine revelation. (Mt 26:67, 68; Lu 22:63, 64) The Samaritan woman at the well recognized Jesus as "a prophet" because he revealed things about her past that he could not have known except by divine power. (Joh 4:17-19; compare Lu 7:39.)
So, too, such Scriptural portions as Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount and his denunciation of the scribes and Pharisees (Mt 23:1-36) may properly be defined as prophecy, for these were an inspired ‘telling forth’ of God’s mind on matters, even as were the pronouncements by Isaiah, Jeremiah, and other earlier prophets.—Compare Isa 65:13-16 and Lu 6:20-25.
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reniaa
hobo olin I am not a fan of splicing scriptures together to make points mixed in with your own viewpoints.
Yes I agree there are false prophets the bible says so and as I said above the scripture shows what their fruitage is and it gives a handy list in Jesus's own words, which you avoid using by jumping to the more ambigious deut scripture to try and make dates prophecy but the context of that one shows that they make up a prophecy and put times on it nothing to do with eagerness over existing bible prophecy.
You then step back and paint a coverall canvas saying basically if you inteprete something biblically wrong then you are a false prophet but again this would make the appostles who intepreted Jesus's words as an appostle living until Jesus's return as false prophets becasue it spread among them as a prediction from Jesus. also the eager thessalonions that were warned on being over-eager Jesus coming in their time would also be condemned as false prophets by your reasonings.
Your whole premise rests on trying to making dating on REAL EXISTING bible prophecy as false prophecy but you have not proved this.
Acts 1:6-9 (New International Version)
6 So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"
7 He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
the context of this scripture is not condemnation but just telling them they won't know the time however eager they are to know.
I am not denying that Jws are foolish by using dates and will probably need refining on this and as with any other christian Religion that has tried to put a date on Christs return among other things time will be the answer. Since ALL christian religions have fallen into this trap at one point in history or other 1000 ad was a popular one for the mainstream christendom religions, are they also condemned as False prophets by your reasoning? or is this only applied to say the last 100 years or so in your book?
This is a made up wrongdoing by Anti-Jws they know what Jesus and the bible says about false prophets fruitage
Jeremiah 14:14
Then the LORD said to me, "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.no mention of dates here it shows they say things that are not part of God's word.
Matthew 24:24
For false Christs and falseprophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.Matthew 7:15-23 (New International Version)
A Tree and Its Fruit
15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Revelation 19:20
But the beast was captured, and with him the falseprophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.Jws have never claimed to do miracles/signs they are one of the few christian religions that don't claim this I think christendom has more to worry about in this respect.
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Satanus
'this would make the appostles who intepreted Jesus's words as an appostle living until Jesus's return as false prophets becasue it spread among them as a prediction from Jesus.'
Yabut, those apostles weren't leading millions of people. They were just talking like two ordinary nonpioneer publishers might talk, while eating a donut at dunkin donuts. Those 2 pubs were among millions of other, reciting the prophecies of the gb. To millions of jws, the gb is on the same level as jesus was to those apostles, what they say will decide of they will take a dump that day or not, or take a blood transfusion or not, or get married or not, or have kids or not. So, you see, you are comparing apples and potatoes. Actually. you are just reciting what your leaders gave you to say. I was given the same line to repeat, 25 yrs ago.
S
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bob1999
"[placing] dates on actual bible prophecies is foolishness"
So the GB, directed by God, acts foolish?
Then why should anyone listen to them?
I'm not saying that no one should listen to the message of the bible, but one does not need to listen to the GB to get the message of the bible.
Oh, wait a minute, the GB says that we can't understand the bible without them.
What shall we do?
The GB is foolish but we can't understand the bible without listening and following foolishness.
Does that sound like God's plan to you?
Peace
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oompa
did i tag this yet?.......whatever....did now......oompa
and that was kinda deep olin.....well done