by allelsefails 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I suggest you Google "John Aquila Brown". In the mid-1800s he published his theory that there is a connection between the seven times of Neb's insanity and the appointed times of the nations mentioned by Jesus in Luke 21. Charles Taze Russell appropriated Brown's theory. You have correctly stated that the 1914 chronolgy is rendered moot if there is, in fact, no such connection, as Brown theorized.
DNCall
Josephus doesn't support 70 years either. Originally he seemed to push 70 years but that was probably because he was a sympathetic jew when younger but his later writings (Against Apion) pointed that temple was destroyed around 590 or so which is closer to 587 not 607. He was probably more balanced in his latter years.
The only reason WTS holds onto 607 because all the other BS dates that Russell taught were discarted by Rutherford. If there is no date to hold onto and point that Christ has returned and that we're living in the last days GB has no message to the world. They can't make money selling a paradise that is imminent and they would have been out of business long time ago. As long as WTS can keep some date in their hat of magic tricks most followers won't question the entire religion. IMO 1914 is a major doctrine that can open people's eyes to see that they've been decieved by those who usurped christ's position and claim to be anointed.
The date 607 BCE is the only possibile date for the Fall of Jerusalem according to the Bible
This is a lie. The year 607 is arrived at in only one way, which is by counting back 70 years from 537, and there is NO SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE THAT THE JEWS RETURNED TO JERUSALEM IN 537.
What's happened to pseudo-scholar?? It's just not like him to miss a 607 thread. I hope he's not caught the swine flu or something.
Scholar's drivel:
The date 607 BCE is the only possibile date for the Fall of Jerusalem according to the Bible, the other dates of 586 or 587 BCE simply omit important biblical history so these dates fall short of the true date by twenty years.
Not at all. Read Jeremiah 25-27.
Apostates and secular scholars fail to give the Bible precedence over the interpretations of archaeology and thus fail to recognize the importance of the seventy years. The date of 609 bce is useless for the dating of the captivity because nothing happened in that year for the Captivity proper did not commence until the land was desolated in 607 BCE. 609 BCE is simply a 'furphy'.
Babylonian dominance began in 609. It ended in 539. 70 years. Apostates of the WT and secular scholars have found 586/7 to be completely compatible with the Bible, astonomy, archaeology, etc.
There is much evidence that the seventy years was a period of captivity-desolation and servitude running from the Fall of Jerusalem to the Return of the Exiles and this view is supported by all of Scripture and the testimony of Josephus.
Only if you isolate one verse and not read Jeremiah in context.
There are many varied interpretations of the seventy years but not a single one of them is practical, based on Scripture, faithful to history and archaeology. A careful reading of the Zechaiah and Jerememiah texts prove the above as well as that of Daniel and Ezra and I have argued these points in some detail on this forum over the last seven or eight years.
They actually prove the opposite. I have seen your 'argumentation' and it is simply empty.
There is clear evidence that the seven times prophecy of Nebuchadnezzer known as the Gentile Times had a major fulfillment after Nebuchadnezzer and this is clearly seen from a careful reading of the entire chapter 4 of Daniel in both the Masoretic text and the Old Greek for starters. Of course apostates have none of this but there specious pleadings well represented by the Jonsson nonsense amounts to opinion and an individual exegesis.
LOL. Sure. A careful reading of Daniel ch 4 shows it was fulfilled in Nebu. It says so specifically.
Further, what also proves the validity of WT Bible based chronology as developed by those 'celebrated WT scholars' is the simple fact that 607 BCE nicely and providentially begins the prophetic period of the Gentile Times ending in 1914 CE. Such a fact inspires faith and it is faith that forms the basis of prophecy.
Please name the 'celebrated scholars' so we can examine their credentials. Your final sentence is simply a WT fable built off of a fairytale spun off of Daniel, then wrongly linked to Luke, incorrectly equated to the 3 and 1/2 times of Revelation....wrongly connected to 'a day for a year' in Numbers...converting 360 day years to 365 day years and beginning the countdown at an incorrect date. Every aspect of the WT chronolgy has a huge leap of logic.
scholar JW
The JW Scholar is guilty of scholastic dishonesty, or is just parroting the Society's dishonesty in the Appendix of the Let Your Kingdom Come book.
I think my previous post on Jeremiah and the Society's own statement stands on it's own. However, it really grinds me when people say that Josephus advocated 70 years of desolation.
The Society uses this quote from Josephus:
“Furthermore, Josephus elsewhere describes the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians and then says that "all Judea and Jerusalem, and the temple, continued to be a desert for seventy years." (Antiquities of the Jews X, ix, 7) Hepointedly states that ‘our city was desolate during the interval of seventy years, until the days of Cyrus.’” (Against Apion I, 19) – Let Your Kingdom Come, 1981, italics the Society’s
Reading this paragraph seems to prove the 70 years of desolation. However, the Society italicized the word “desolate”. This distracts from the word “during” used by Cyrus. This is critical because the statement of Josephus does not directly prove that the city and temple were destroyed 70 years before the Jews release by Cyrus. It merely says these things happened during a 70 year period.
Just semantics?
Conspicuously absent from the Society’s examination is the following; in the same writing of Josephus, a few paragraphs later, he specifically addresses the temple in Jerusalem:
“These accounts agree with the true history in our books [the Hebrew Scriptures]; for in them it is written that Nebuchadnezzar, in the nineteenth year of his reign, laid our temple desolate, and so it lay in that state for fifty years ; but that in the second year of the reign of Cyrus, its foundations were laid and it was finished again in the second year of Darius.” - Against Apion I, 21
So, 70 - 50 = 20. There's your 20 year discrepancy. Josephus, the Bible, and secular chronology are all in agreement.
Thanks ultimatereality. I never knew they did that on Josephus.
Ultimate Reality
You talk nonsense. Josephus refers to the seventy year as a period of desolation, servitude and exile running from the destruction of the Temple, city and land until the Return of the Jews under Cyrus when one looks at all of the references together. Thus the overall description of the biblical seventy years is in accord with the longtime understanding of matters by the 'celebrated WT scholars.
There is of course the statement by Josephus wherein he refers to a 'fifty year period of obscurity' which can either be interpreted as a copyist's mistake or a comment about the state of the temple within his forementioned defined 'seventy year' period. Either way this reference harmonizes with Josephus' previous comments/
scholar JW
The phrase, "celebrated WT scholars" always brings a smile to my face. It never gets old.
Barefoot Servant.
No lies arr needed because the Bible is quite definite about the matter. There is compelling evidence both from the Bible and secular history that the Jews returned home in 537 BCE by the seventh month and even the apostae Jonsson has to concede this point even though he promotes 538 BCE with considerable difficulty. The date 537 is in harmony with the best and most recent scholarship.
scholar JW
