This was an awesome thread. I think it is funny how "scholar JW" answers questions the way the WTS does - ignoring things he can't actually answer and focusing on things where he is on more solid footing. Funny how Josephus is absolutely accurate when he says 70 years, but probably a scribes error that out in 50 years. Circular reasoning at its best. I think it is funny that the WTS hasn't tried to prove anything about the debate of 607/586 in any literature since 1981. Only people who read the "apostate" sites are even trying, the WTS gave up a long time ago. There is no scriptural evidence connecting Nebs 7 years of insanity with the "Gentile Times". Just like all ridiculous time prophecy - it only works if you "have faith" in the man first. Like all braindead peoples - Scientology, Mormons, radical Muslims, radical Christians - have faith in the prophet and denegrate people who disagree. Where is the scripture? Allelsefails
70 years = 607?
by allelsefails 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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jeandeau
Thanks to all who have contributed, especially allelsefails and ultimate reality. For myself. I had to see how the 607 -1914 chronology was rewritten numerous times, Russels teachings and reasonings on this matter vehemently rejected by the WTS, The final logic for the 1914 derivation deduced and set to publication in 1943 (29 years after the prophesied event) using a little stretch of a year to make things fit, and overwhelming archaelological evidence that jerusalem was destroyed about 587 BCE, not 607 BCE. Then I opened my eyes to see the horrific collateral damage the WTS has incurred through the years (I knew of some and suspected much more) and blinded myself to. The WTS pattern in clinging to fancifull proposed prophecies and fulfillments is a pattern established over millenia of the christian and Judaic traditions, hoping for the fulfillment of the promise in the near future. Nothing new here except the power this organization has wielded over millions of gullible gentle hearted sheep such as myself. They have beaten and fleeced the flock of Christ and will one day stand before God's Judgement throne in front of Jesus Christ and have to answer for their proud arrogant deciptful merciless actions. Yes, the 70 years prophecy when read carefully finds a reasonably exact fulfillment in the babylonian regional domination from about 608 BCE to 538 BCE ( I stand to be corrected by a year or two there) while there is no support whatever that The temple was destroyed etc. in 607BCE rather than 588 or so as given by all reliable sources I know of. There is no need to extrapolate the 7 times of Nebuchadnezzar into the times of the gentiles or any good biblical reason for such. The entire WTS 1914 thing is a fantasy that has been used to give unlimited authority to a small group of men who have acted as wolves in sheeps clothing, devouring the flock. I recognise my faith is not establishable in the sense science and engineering work from repeatable results. Faith reaches out for the unverifiable, but it shouldn't defy all logic and harden the heart. The WTS teaches that helping "the least of these my brothers" means supporting the "annointed" esp. the governing body in Brooklyn by whatever means we can,(did I incorrectly infer that means send money and promote loyalty?). I absolutely and without equivocation believe Jesus was talking about the homeless filthy drunk in the alley behind the dumpster, lost in despair and misery, apparently without a freind. That is the one Jesus wants us to turn our heart to and assist.
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aniron
How can someone who calls themselves "Scholar" believe in such nonsence against all the evidence.
Oops sorry forgot as a JW he is not allowed to think or believe anything that does not appear in some Watchtower publication. Publication incidentally written by people who have a thing against education. Why? Because they know that getting an education would expose there nonsense about 607.
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isaacaustin
aniron, that is the point- he calls himself scholar. It is self-proclaimed...much as the GB is self-proclaimed to its role.
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Mad Dawg
Scholar, I frankly believe that anyone who claims to know that some date or another in the OT is proved from the Bible is talking out their blow hole. How can anyone conclusively state that, according to the Bible, Jerusalem fell in 607 B.C. (exactly 607years prior to Jesus' birth) when:
- True scholars agree that Jesus was born any time from 2 to 7 B.C.?
- There is nothing in the Bible that firmly and clearly fixes the passing of time from an OT event to the birth of Jesus?
Please tell me how you know that Jerusalem fell 607 years before year 1 using the Bible only.
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Mad Dawg
Post 103
The Bible provides sufficient data to calculate dates mentioned in the Bible because it is a book of history and ones combines this data with secular data to validate those Biblical events. so one can be very confident that Jerusalem fell in 607 BCE. Celebrated WT scholars have frequently described the method of computation in various publications of the WT Society. Just do the reading and the thinking.
scholar JW
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aniron
Post 165
Chronology is not nonsense but a science and scholars all over the world believe in chronology of some kind which is used as the skeleton of history. Bible chronology that proves the validity of 607 BCE has been well set out by celebrated WT scholars over many decades and has been confirmed by secular evidence.
scholar JW
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jeandeau
Post 8
Your opinion that the seventy years stands for nothing more than Babylonian domination is only partially correct because Jeremiah was quite emphatic that the seventy year period was one of desolation of the land of Judah in order to fulfill prophecy. It is the failure to recognize that the seventy years was a period of servitude-captivity-desolation that undermines your belief and that of apostates and higher critics. JW's are faithful and loyal to the Bible and not to the opinions of men. It is true that in the course of interpreting Bible prophecy that we have made some mistakes but hese have been outweighed and negated by our successes such as the fulfilling of prophecy. There is nothing fanciful about 607 and 1914 for these dates and events are part of eschatology which requires close attention to history both ancient and modern and the strictures of God's Word revolving around the interpretation of the seven times of Daniel 4.
What you need to do is to examine the Bible more closely and use your thinking faculties rather than being deceived by lazy, evil and deceitful apostates.
scholar JW
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allelsefails
Post 31
Scholar does a good job in refuting lies and decieit in connection with chronology on this forum and has done so for many years. He has not ignored anything that is said to counter his defence of WT Bible chronology. Josephus is employed nicely to corroborate our understanding of chronology and its related history. The debate about 586 or 587 versus 607 BCE has been well discussed in many of our publications by simply pointing out the fact of the seventy years and its being vital in doing reliable chronology and history. There is considerable evidence establishing the seven times with the Gentile Times and the said scholar has tabulated such evidence for the honest and dutiful inquirer. One only needs to read the entire chapter of Daniel 4 to appreciate the fact of the matter. All that you have done for yourself is being deceived and led astray by the Jonsson nonsense on this subject who himself shows no interest in prophecy for he is a hater and ridiculer of prophecy.
Braindead people as you allege do not engage in a preaching and teaching ministry from door to door or house to house which is what cults do not do and neither the apostates do for it is such public ministry that confirms the True Religion in these times.
scholar JW
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scholar
Tuesday
Post 1343
Thank you for your kind words. In order to interpret the seventy years accurately you would need to read all of those texts mentioning the seventy years such as the two in Jeremiah, one in Daniel, one in 2 Chronicles and the two in Zechariah. Then you would need to read Jeremiah as a book and see what was foretold to occur to Judah and Jerusalem also Josephus' several reference to that same period confirms the overall interpretation that the seventy years was a definite historical period with a precise beginning and ending with the Fall and the Return identified as a period of desolation-servitude and exile.
There is no other possible interpretation that accommodates all of the evidence and the biblical references. I have stuidied this subject closely and have read closely all that is published in the scholarly literature and of course the Jonsson nonsense and have concluded that what the celebrated WT scholars have said on the matter is sound biblically, historically and exegetically.
I disagree with your claim that Alan F has 'obliterated every argument' of scholar for the simple reason that scholar has responded to all of his criticisms over many years and in fact has helped him to understand his questions that he has asked of Bethel. Despite his atheism and disbelief in the Bible the foresaid scholar has tried to assist him to have a love for God's Word. His people and Organization of which he had some former attachment.
scholar JW