"Only theologians can be true atheists." (J. Lacan)

by Narkissos 22 Replies latest jw friends

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Well it's an interesting discussion. :)

    The sentence I referred to is (deliberately, I think) ambiguous. It can be understood in many ways -- including the one(s) intended by the author hopefully; I'll come to that later, although quietlyleaving and slimboyfat's links already give some clues about the general framework of Lacan's problematic, which is definitely not about religious belief in the ordinary sense.

    But I'll stick for the moment to the (non-Lacanian) way it has been mostly understood so far.

    Atheism is conceptually tributary to theology. It receives and accepts from theology the notion of "God" it denies. And it must consider this notion fixed once and for all to have something (solid) to deny. Which means that it naturally chooses as interlocutors apologists of a traditional, orthodox or fundamentalist exoterical theology; objective agreement with them on a positive definition of "God" (the "what") is a prerequisite for the ("whether," "yes" or "no") debate. At the same time, it must ignore the ongoing work of fundamental theology to which "God" is essentially a question, an unknown "x" -- or the unknowable itself as in the old tradition of apophatic theology. How would an atheist respond, for instance, to Tillich's definition of "God" as the ground and abyss (Grund / Abgrund) of being, the "ultimate concern" of man, which doesn't exist (ek-sist), doesn't "add" to the world as a separate and additional "being"? Or to the God of Process theology (Whitehead, Cobb) which is an integral part of evolutionary and historical becoming? I don't mean there can't be an atheistic answer to such definitions of "God" (Spook, in another thread, made an excellent point about the fact that such re-definitions are not those which have been held by the vast majority of believers in history; that would be worth discussing). But still each theology would imply a different kind of "atheism".

    On the other hand, the history of theology contains much atheism right from the beginning. Monotheism emerges (with Deutero-Isaiah) as the denial of gods -- not only "all but one" as is often held. As the English capitalisation implies, "God" is not "a god" at all, even if he historically assumes (and modifies) the pre-monotheistic tradition of one god (Yhwh). In a sense, atheism pursues the monotheistic agenda of anti-idolatry which is coextensive to (mono-)theology.

    From this perspective, I think there is much wisdom in ATJ's suggestion of "trying to define your own stance". A lot of theologians do not believe in the "God" which atheists deny. And when atheists stop fighting against classical theism and begin expressing what they do believe they often come surprisingly close to theological concepts old and new.

    Incidentally, that's precisely what happens with Lacan among many others: an atheistic thinking (by usual standards) with a deep and conscious theological structure. More about that later.

  • Spook
    Spook

    Haha. Yes, yes. You darned theologians with your eastern concept of words!

    If I'm ever pressed by an opponent who is quick to play a language shell game with me I will be very specific:

    I believe specifically that most of the common gods as people understand them are fictional characters (perhaps one way of saying it.)

    I usually consider god's as "forces" of one kind or another to be Deism, whether the believer admits it or not.

    Personally, I've never liked the "shell games" or attempts to nail spurious "telling comissions" in language. These things are not productive, nor are they taken seriously in philosophy. In debate, you will generally win "points" by interpreting your opponents case to be as strong as possible, rather than attacking your own version of it.

    My real complaint against some of the theistic philosophers is that the arguments they use to defend their nebulous deity are later used in an improper derivative form to defend the "common man's" God by people who have now thought themselves into a box no man can hope to reach. It does no good to tell them the person who crafted that argument accepted evolution as part of his argument, etc.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Spook,

    First of all I should perhaps make clear that I am neither an "opponent" to your views nor a "theistic apologist" (at least not in a realistic sense). I for one am fully satisfied with your understanding of "gods" (and even the various versions of "God") as fictional characters. Only I do not count fiction, and reflection on fiction (which could be a broader category for "theology"), as worthless (I don't mean you do btw).

    I very much agree that "creative theology" is often hijacked into defensive, apologetic, and ultimately conservative religious agendas (I might add, a bit cynically, that most religious institutions would not tolerate and support creative or liberal theologians were it not for the hope that they can be used in such a way). However I tend to disagree with the "elitist" implications that I perceive (rightly or wrongly) in your comment. Imo many sophisticated constructions of religious thinkers do not aim at fabricating an "artificial faith" for intellectuals but to make (philosophical, or simply thinkable) sense of the "common man"'s faith, ultimately for the "common man" (although it rarely reaches that stage). Religion is first of all a popular phenomenon, before it is channelled and organised into dogma and liturgy and made to serve political agendas. Most people in world history have had (and still have, I think) a(n anthropological) need for prayer, myth, and ritual. It is controlled and oriented but not created ex nihilo by "religions". This I feel has to be thought (rather than fought). The (difficult) task of creative theology is helping people think their faith rather than telling them what to believe. An antagonistic approach which denies the validity of faith altogether will push them further into the arms of those who do tell them what to believe.

  • AllTimeJeff
    AllTimeJeff

    This has been good food for thought for me... (Although it is late.... )

    Atheism is conceptually tributary to theology. It receives and accepts from theology the notion of "God" it denies. And it must consider this notion fixed once and for all to have something (solid) to deny. Which means that it naturally chooses as interlocutors apologists of a traditional, orthodox or fundamentalist exoterical theology; objective agreement with them on a positive definition of "God" (the "what") is a prerequisite for the ("whether," "yes" or "no") debate.

    This statement is one of the most fairest of statements I have seen regarding atheism. While subtle, this kind of argument against the traditional "god" (that is to say, "fixed", "traditional", "orthodox" or "fundamentalist") is the basis of the argument in many/most cases.

    If I may restate, so that I might see if I understand, atheists, having rebelled at their first rebellion against "fixed", "traditional", "orthodox" or "fundamentalist" views of god, rebel especially and specifically against a positive definition of "God". Without this fixed point to argue against, or believe against, there is no argument at all.

    Thus, the debate of theist v atheist has as its host battlefield, the fixed point definition of god that their faith offers, with all the prerequisite dogma.

    At the same time, it (atheism) must ignore the ongoing work of fundamental theology to which "God" is essentially a question, an unknown "x" -- or the unknowable itself as in the old tradition of apophatic theology.

    And it is to this point that speaks to me. While I find atheism a mostly positive step forward and away from the controlling tradition and dogma of organized religion, in general, I find that it ignores other interpretations of god, esp those interpretations that seem to be more grounded in reality and non superstitious. To view god (if I may) as a variable in a math problem illustrates, (not explains) much of the angst that bubbles up. Frankly, it is much easier to explain existentially what god is not, as opposed to what god is.

    And if it may be allowed that in demonstrating what god is not, then whatever is left (as Sherlock Holmes was wont to explain) might be truthful.

    Is it possible to allow that "god", or the idea of "god", is something else deep within our psyche,in general, that is different from how organized religion explains it, yet otherwise existing on a deep psychological level?

    Personally, there has always been one aspect of atheism that to me has been unsatisfactory to me since my post JW existence began: It only (basically) serves the purpose of saying that god is not what organized religion insists it is. To that I agree. At that point however, atheism as a concept tends to leave off, leaving the (prospective) atheist to figure out things for himself.

    To me, atheism/agnosticism is permission to think and explore these things beyond their negative tenses, both theistic/atheistically.

    And when atheists stop fighting against classical theism and begin expressing what they do believe they often come surprisingly close to theological concepts old and new.

    I have found myself on this "path" for several months now. It is somewhat edifying, without having to be beholden to the slavish dogma of my past.

    (Btw, it would be a mistake for any atheist reading that last statement to think I have abandoned the intellectual honesty that I find so appealing in atheists. Far from it. I actually borrow it and use it in my own existential observations about what makes us all "tick". )

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    A postmodernist, an atheist, and an existentialist walk into a bar.....

  • AllTimeJeff
    AllTimeJeff

    LOL!

    Damn it BTS, you stole my line!

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    What if I am a mystic instead of a theologian?

    BTS

  • AllTimeJeff
    AllTimeJeff
    What if I am a mystic instead of a theologian?

    Then you will have to update your name tag....

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    I was hoping that in this case my Spell of Smite would do double damage for half the mana and a faster cast.

    BTS

  • AllTimeJeff
    AllTimeJeff

    Dude, I gave up on World of Warcraft after 5 minutes... I didn't want to look like the South Park gang...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNshxQRzhqw

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