The Value of Pi, The Mysteries of Pi and e and the Bible.

by Chalam 55 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Hi,

    Pi and the Bible has been the subject of debate before. However, I had not seen this information which clear up the 1 Kings 7:23 issue before so I am posting here. Also, the two constants, Pi and e encoded in the first verse of the OT and NT respectively, see second article.

    Full details in the URL at the start of each topic.

    The Value of Pi

    The Value of Pi

    by Chuck Missler

    PURSUE THIS TOPIC:

    RESOURCES Cosmic Codes - Now In Paperback

    When I was a teenager, I was confronted by a skeptic (a Unitarian, actually) concerning an apparent discrepancy in 1 Kings 7:23. This passage deals with Solomon's Temple and the products of Hiram the Bronzeworker:

    And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

    1 Kings 7:23

    The huge cast bronze basin in 1 Kings 7:23 was 10 cubits 1 in diameter and its circumference was 30 cubits, which is mathematically inaccurate. Almost any schoolboy knows that the circumference of a circle is not the diameter times 3, but rather, the diameter times a well-known constant called "pi".

    The real value of pi is 3.14159265358979, but is commonly approximated by 22/7.

    This is assumed, by many, to be an "error" in the Old Testament record, and is often presented as a skeptical rebuttal to the "inerrancy" of the Scripture. How can we say that the Bible is inerrant when it contains such an obvious geometrically incorrect statement? How do we deal with this?

    24-Hour Hot Line

    It is interesting that whenever we find such a thing, we should simply take it to the Throne and claim the commitment Jesus made His disciples:

    But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. - John 14:26

    Is this really true? Then why don't we resort to it more often?

    In this case, the Lord ultimately brought to our attention some subtleties usually overlooked in the Hebrew text. 2

    A Spelling Lesson

    The common word for circumference is qav. Here, however, the spelling of the word for circumference, qaveh, adds a heh (h).

    In the Hebrew Bible, the scribes did not alter any text which they felt had been copied incorrectly. Rather, they noted in the margin what they thought the written text should be. The written variation is called a kethiv; and the marginal annotation is called the qere.

    To the ancient scribes, this was also regarded as a remez, a hint of something deeper. This appears to be the clue to treat the word as a mathematical formula.

    Numerical Values

    The Hebrew alphabet is alphanumeric: each Hebrew letter also has a numerical value and can be used as a number.

    The q has a value of 100; the v has a value of 6; thus, the normal spelling would yield a numerical value of 106. The addition of the h, with a value of 5, increases the numerical value to 111. This indicates an adjustment of the ratio 111/106, or 31.41509433962 cubits. Assuming that a cubit was 1.5 ft., 3 this 15-foot-wide bowl would have had a circumference of 47.12388980385 feet.

    This Hebrew "code" results in 47.12264150943 feet, or an error of less than 15 thousandths of an inch! (This error is 15 times better than the 22/7 estimate that we were accustomed to using in school!) How did they accomplish this? This accuracy would seem to vastly exceed the precision of their instrumentation. How would they know this? How was it encoded into the text?

    Implications

    Beyond simply these engineering insights of Solomon's day, there are more far-reaching implications of this passage.

    1) The Bible is reliable. The "errors" pointed out by skeptics usually derive from misunderstandings or trivial quibbles.

    2) The numerical values of the letters are legitimate and apparently can carry significance.

    This, in itself, is a major controversy among some. There are some who maintain that the numerical assignments in the Hebrew alphabet were borrowed from the Greek alphabet in a later period, and the influence of Pythagoras, et al. (580-500 B.C.) However, the Babylonians also employed "gematria" (the numerical values of letters and words) during the time of Sargon II. The wall at Khorsabad was supposed to have been built according to the numerical value of Sargon's name. 4 The Hebrew use of an alphanumeric alphabet also predates these assumptions.

    Fundamental Constants? The Mysteries of Pi and e

    The Mysteries of Pi and e

    by Chuck Missler

    PURSUE THIS TOPIC:

    RESOURCES Learn the Bible in 24 Hours Hidden Treasures in the Biblical Text
    ARTICLES The Value of Pi

    The recent discovery that the speed of light is not a constant has created quite a stir - and rethinking - in both physics and cosmology. (Although the spate of recent articles always fails to credit Barry Setterfield for calling this to our attention over a decade ago!) However, there does appear to be at least two intrinsic constants in the universe: p and e.

    We all met p ("pi") in school when we had to deal with the circumference of a circle and similar matters. "Pi are squared" sounds like bad grammar, but it is correct geometry for the area of a circle, p r 2 . We approximated it with 22/7, until we got into engineering circles where we learned that, more precisely, it was 3.141592654... (It has recently been calculated to a trillion decimal places! 1 ) As we have previously mentioned in several of our materials, p is also a "hidden treasure" in the Hebrew text of 1st Kings 7:23. 2 When one corrects the letter values for a variation of the spelling, the 46-foot circumference of Solomon's "molten sea" is specified to an accuracy of better than 15 thousandths of an inch !

    Natural Logarithms

    Perhaps less well known to most of our less technical subscribers is the base of Naperian ("natural") logarithms,e . It shows up in myriads of places in advanced engineering and mathematics such as:

    In wave mechanics,X = Ae kt
    Or electrical theory,Q(t) = Qe -t/RC
    In advanced math, E i x = Cos x + i Sin x, where i = (-1) 1/2
    And the distribution of prime numbers: A(x) = x/log e x
    It is defined by e = lim (1 + 1/n) n
    n - > ¥

    and it is usually approximated by 2.718281828…

    A Rabbinical Tradition

    The ancient Hebrew sages believed, of course, that God created the heavens and the earth. However, some of them believed that the Word of God was the very template with which He did it. This strikes some of us as simply a colorful exaggeration that goes beyond any direct evidence. there are hints here and there… There are two well-known references to the creation in the Scripture: Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1. Let's look "underneath" the text of each of these.

    Genesis 1:1

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    In Hebrew:

    If you examine the numerical values of each of the Hebrew letters, and the numerical value of the words (see chart), and apply them to this formula:

    The number of letters x the product of the letters
    The number of words x the product of the words

    You get 3.1416 x 10 17 . The value of p to four decimal places! Hmm.

    John 1:1

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    In Greek:

    This time if you take the numerical value of each of the Greek letters (see chart), and the numerical value of the words, and apply them to the same formula:

    The number of letters x the product of the letters
    The number of words x the product of the words

    You now get 2.7183 x 10 65 , the value of e. Curious!

    Significance?

    Each of these is another of those puzzling ostensible "coincidences" that are too astonishing to dismiss, and yet present challenges in suggesting any real significance. 3 And taken together, they do evoke some conjectures. There are, however, at least two problems: why just four decimal places (they both deviate from the fifth place onwards) and what do you do with all the "extra zeroes"?

    I frankly don't know. Nevertheless, I thought it would be an excellent conversation piece as we return to our academic schedules this month. The rabbis would suggest that each of these may simply be a remez , a hint of something deeper.

    Let me know if you have any suggestions. Meanwhile, let's continue to praise our Creator-Savior for His marvelous Word!

    All the best,

    Stephen

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    No wonder the witlesses want people to flunk math. I can remember in junior high school, pi is represented as being 3.14, which was close enough for 7th and 8th grade work (today's calculators use pi=3.141592654. I can only remember once when a science teacher, obviously very lazy and incompetent, let us use pi=3.

    If you use pi=3, you are going to underestimate the circumference. Which might be good enough if you are getting a rough estimate (the answer will always be a little low using that method). But, when it is used in the Unholy Bible (which is supposed to be perfectly accurate), something is wrong. If something is 10 meters in diameter in the Bible, it is more correct if one writes it as being 31 1/2 meters in circumference (still off, but at least that is better than just writing 30).

    Maybe the witlesses would be better off staying home on Thursday night and studying their math.

  • AllTimeJeff
    AllTimeJeff

    When one looks at the ruins and archaeological finds around Jerusalem, it doesn't surprise me in the least to find that an understanding of concepts that we today call pi were in evidence.

    However, the evidence shows that concepts such as algebra (an Arabic word) were really pioneered and used to great(er) effect by other people's of the day, notably, the Babylonians and Greeks.

    Although their science seems way better, their gods have died. Correct? And where is YHWH/Jesus? It seems they are having the same effect on the world as the Babylonian and Greek gods.

    It seems the Israelites in particular were more interested in sacrificing to YHWH on a daily basis then engineering and learning.

    None of this proves anything about the validity of the gods one worships. It is interesting to peruse the bible and find some concepts of engineering and science, but they are relegated to a handful of verses, needing explanation aplenty. To have the quantum jump conclusion made, namely: "Look, they understood pi. See, "god" exists, the bible is true." is a big reach indeed.

    No, the conclusion does not fit the evidence or the facts. The facts seem only to demonstrate that there were some Israelites adept at math and engineering. Nothing more.

  • bohm
    bohm

    Oh dear... What one must keep in mind with these speculations is, that there are no clear rules what formulas, interpretation, etc. that should apply. Basically by using the "alphanumeric" rule, you turn the whole bible into a large collection of numbers, you then choose arbitrary subsets of these numbers, use arbitrary rules on them, and get other numbers and some of them happends to approximate known constants.

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Maybe the witlesses would be better off staying home on Thursday night and studying their math.

    Agreed! Hebrew and Greek would be good too :)

    Just to re-cap, the page says this

    A Spelling Lesson

    The common word for circumference is qav. Here, however, the spelling of the word for circumference, qaveh, adds a heh (h).

    In the Hebrew Bible, the scribes did not alter any text which they felt had been copied incorrectly. Rather, they noted in the margin what they thought the written text should be. The written variation is called a kethiv; and the marginal annotation is called the qere.

    To the ancient scribes, this was also regarded as a remez, a hint of something deeper. This appears to be the clue to treat the word as a mathematical formula.

    Numerical Values

    The Hebrew alphabet is alphanumeric: each Hebrew letter also has a numerical value and can be used as a number.

    The q has a value of 100; the v has a value of 6; thus, the normal spelling would yield a numerical value of 106. The addition of the h, with a value of 5, increases the numerical value to 111. This indicates an adjustment of the ratio 111/106, or 31.41509433962 cubits. Assuming that a cubit was 1.5 ft., 3 this 15-foot-wide bowl would have had a circumference of 47.12388980385 feet.

    This Hebrew "code" results in 47.12264150943 feet, or an error of less than 15 thousandths of an inch! (This error is 15 times better than the 22/7 estimate that we were accustomed to using in school!) How did they accomplish this? This accuracy would seem to vastly exceed the precision of their instrumentation. How would they know this? How was it encoded into the text?

    All the best,

    Stephen

  • bohm
    bohm

    ...and when we are at it, the thing about using letters as numbers, that was invented 400 years AFTER that particular verse about the circumference was written...

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Such a coincidence that a simple formula of the words of Genesis 1:1 in the Hebrew give the value of Pi.

    The number of letters x the product of the letters
    The number of words x the product of the
    words

    You get 3.1416 x 10 17 . The value of p to four decimal places! Hmm.

    Also John 1:1 from the Greek gives the value of e

    The number of letters x the product of the letters
    The number of words x the product of the words

    You now get 2.7183 x 10 65 , the value of e. Curious!

    "Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous"-Albert Einstein

    All the best,

    Stephen

  • AllTimeJeff
    AllTimeJeff

    Even though I will be live and let live on this matter, finding concepts of math and engineering in the bible doesn't prove the superstitious claims of the bible.

    If that were the litmus test, then the Babyonians would have a way better claim to their gods being true then the Jews/Christians view of god.

    Doesn't this seem a bit like Numerology?

  • bohm
    bohm

    The question here is a statistical one: "could this has happened by chance?", and quoting Einstein does not change that. One has to give a statistical answer to that, even the guys with the bible code tried to do that (but failed to convince anybody but themselves).
    The problem is that we are not geared to understand statistical questions, or questions where we have to weight large numbers (the amount of combinations/interpretations of alphanumerical numbers in the bible vs. the low propabiblity of each "hit").. i have this problem every day, statistical modelling is a large part of my studies :-) .

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    The recent discovery that the speed of light is not a constant has created quite a stir - and rethinking - in both physics and cosmology.

    Tee hee hee.

    I'm sure there are going to be many more such "discoveries" as Hubble peers even more deeply into the past - or is it the future?

    How wondrous His works are!

    Sylvia

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