Challenge #6 (The Spirit IS Like Jesus) ~ GS / JBeD / Serious JWs

by 4examp 15 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Hi 4examp,

    I have already discussed your methodology on your "challenges" # 1 & 2, I would just make one additional (and very general) remark here.

    Leaving aside the underlying issue of Trinitarian apologetics (and the related question whether or how far the orthodox understanding of hupostasis or persona corresponds to what you understand a "person" to be), it seems to me that your survey of "personal" and "impersonal" traits ascribed to the Holy Spirit is bound to reach one very simple conclusion: both can be found in the texts.

    Starting from this observation, asking your readers to decide whether the Holy Spirit is actually "somebody" or "something," a "who" or a "what," requires them to take one part of the "evidence" at face value and explain the rest away as a mere figure of speech. What you blame the WT for doing, i.e. dismissing "personal" traits as literary personification, you expect them to do in the opposite sense: dismiss "impersonal" traits as literary reification.

    The contradictory answers you get from the texts (and frequently from the same texts) might as well be an indication that you are asking them the wrong question, and that your basic dichotomy ("personal" vs. "impersonal"), intuitive as it may be, is artificial, anachronistic and foreign to them.

    This observation, along with another (the fact that the Spirit is sometimes identified to "God" and/or "Jesus" and sometimes distinguished from both), could also point you to a different direction, namely that the early Christian concept(s) of the deity includes a "personal" and an "impersonal," or "transpersonal" dimension. Iow, that "God" is not anymore exclusively conceivable as "somebody" than it is as "something". And that the relative "impersonality" of the Spirit is actually counter-balancing the unilaterally "personal" representations of "God" as "Father" and "Son".

    It is noteworthy that many classical explanations of the Trinity, although confessing the Holy Spirit as a hupostasis or persona, keep on resorting to impersonal or abstract metaphors for the "third person". E.g. the lover, the beloved and love in Augustine; or the knower, the known and knowledge in Thomas Aquinas. This is still the case in many modern theologies. I was thinking of Raymon Panikkar's work on reconciling the personal and impersonal dimensions of the deity in dialogue with Hinduism and found the following (partially) online book which looks interesting:

    http://books.google.fr/books?id=nFnkEaOwEKUC&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75&dq=Panikkar+spirit+impersonal&source=bl&ots=pTu7A_Wb7J&sig=7ZfTr5TNMlv0vRM2DCfcijQT1ZY&hl=fr&ei=3PYiSqSDBdbOjAfdzey4Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8#PPP1,M1

  • 4examp
    4examp

    Narkissos,

    I appreciate your thoughtful (but not infallible) input.

    First let's address & resolve one major point.

    1. You wrote "it seems to me that your survey of "personal" and "impersonal" traits ascribed to the Holy Spirit
    is bound to reach one very simple conclusion: both can be found in the texts."

    That's a good thing, because Ac.2:4 confirms this vital, foundational point -- a "very simple conclusion".

    Scripture presents Person AND Power ~ Giver AND Gift ~ Somebody AND Something.

    2. You wrote: "What you blame the WT for doing, i.e. dismissing "personal" traits as literary personification,
    you expect them to do in the opposite sense: dismiss "impersonal" traits as literary reification."

    NO, I am showing that Scripture presents Person AND/OR Power ~ NOT the "holy spirit" is either "personal" OR "impersonaL".

    3. You wrote: that my "basic dichotomy ("personal" vs. "impersonal"), intuitive as it may be, is artificial, anachronistic and foreign...."

    NO, please understand that my position is NOT "personal" vs. "impersonal".
    My viewpoint is that Scripture reveals "personal" AND "impersonal" aspects of holy pneuma.

  • C. T. Russell
    C. T. Russell

    possible-san is possible-san

  • 4examp
    4examp

    Hi CTR:

    Actually, Scripture says DEFINITELY "yes" to the PERSON of The Holy Spirit.

    AND .................

    Actually, Scripture says DEFINITELY "yes" to the POWER of The Holy Spirit.

    For example, Mary became pregnant by the POWER of The Spirit, not the Person of The Spirit, or the Person of our Heavenly Father.

    Mt.1:18
    tou de ieesou christou hee genesis houtws een
    OF THE BUT JESUS CHRIST THE ORIGIN THUS WAS

    mneesteutheisees tees meetros autou marias
    HAVING BEEN PROMISED IN MARRIAGE OF THE MOTHER OF HIM MARY

    ...prin ee sunelthein autous
    ...BEFORE OR TO COME TOGETHER THEM

    heurethee en gastri echousa ek pneumatos hagiou
    SHE WAS FOUND IN BELLY HAVING OUT OF SPIRIT HOLY

    Mt.1:20
    ...to gar en autee genneethen ek pneumatos estin hagiou
    ...THE (THING) FOR IN HER GENERATED OUT OF SPIRIT IS HOLY

    Lk.1:35
    kai apokritheis ho aggelos eipen autee
    AND HAVING ANSWERED THE ANGEL SAID TO HER

    pneuma hagion epeleusetai epi se kai dunamis hupsistou
    SPIRIT HOLY WILL COME OVER UPON YOU, AND POWER OF MOST HIGH

    episkiasei soi dio kai to gennwmenon
    WILL OVERSHADOW YOU; THROUGH WHICH ALSO THE (THING) BEING GENERATED

    hagion kleetheesetai huios theou
    HOLY WILL BE CALLED, SON OF GOD

    It is a fact of Scripture that the Greek definite article is absent.
    With all the other evidence I found & presented, I see the "power" of the "Person" involved in this incredible, unique, Bethlehem event.

    So will I move on to a different view (other than holy pneuma is presented in Scripture as "Person" AND "power")?
    S o far, there is no need.

  • 4examp
    4examp

    Narkissos, you wrote:
    "It is noteworthy that many classical explanations of the Trinity, although confessing the Holy Spirit as a hupostasis or persona, keep on resorting to impersonal or abstract metaphors for the "third person".
    E.g. the lover, the beloved and love in Augustine; or the knower, the known and knowledge in Thomas Aquinas."

    Noteworthy??? ~ On one hand, I agree that it's noteworthy that classical explanations confess The Holy Spirit's persona.
    Noteworthy??? ~ On the other, it's more just "interesting" expressions of devotional thought rather than Scriptural analysis.

    You conclude: "impersonal or abstract" ???

    ~ "THE Lover", "THE Beloved", "THE Knower" = THE Personal -- THE very Personal !!!

    ~ "love", "the known", "knowledge" = Powerful depictions of "The Lover" (who "loves", "knows", & has a mind filled with "knowledge").

  • 4examp
    4examp

    I will respond to your objection to my methodology, but many thoughts & many factors, prevent me from doing so for now.

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