A lot of old paintings depict it as a T shape.
This one is c.1490
It Was NOT a Cross or a Torture Stake!
by cameo-d 16 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Priest73
could have been a popsicle stick. who gives a rip? those whacky jdubs will make a mountian from a molehill. IMAO.
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Witness 007
I always though he died on a huge yellow "M" ........like the one at McDonalds!......or a "wheel of mis-fortune" constantly spinning him around and around.....
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cameo-d
I am curious about the little monkey demon playing with the skull. Do you think it is a message of some kind? Were the artists trying to tell us something?
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aniron
In that painting were is the sign that Pilate had nailed above Jesus head?
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purplesofa
Looks like the top of the picture got chopped off or the artist simply ran out of canvas.
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mindmelda
That's possible, but there was a cross piece, because Christ carried it to the place of execution.
However, from the standpoint of bearing weight and ease of construction, a lower crosspiece would seem to be more feasible.
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only me
There was a show on the History Channel that showed the feasability of the various meathods of crucifixion.
Their conclusion was that Jesus died on a T shaped cross. They said that impalement on a stake would have killed him way too fast, a death on a regular cross would take too long. T- shaped was just right.
I think there was a thread about this show back at Easter time.
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Incognito
Last week, there was a show on Torture & Death machines I watched a part of. The cross was included as one of those machines. The show was on Discovery channel.
The information presented that the Roman cross was actually 'T' shaped (Tau) and did not actually cross over as is common in the Latin cross, the cross shape we are most familiar.
The stake in the Roman cross was 10 - 12' long with approx. 1/3 buried permanently in the ground, so as to be used for multiple crucifixions. The top of the stake had a tenon (smaller dimensioned protrusion cut from the larger stake) which would fit into a socket (mortise) cut into the centre of a 6’ cross beam (patibulum). In this manner, the cross beam was actually balancing on top of the stake with the mortise/tenon joint securing the two pieces together with no other fastening method needed.
The condemned would be nailed to the cross beam while the beam was on the ground. To hang the beam was simply a matter of hoisting the beam (with prisoner) to the top of the stake and inserting the tenon into the mortise.
Nailing the condemned is usually most effective when done through the wrist, between the larger bones as this area would be able to support the persons weight while less likely to rip as would be likely if nailed through the hands. Nailing the hands would result in more pain but ropes would have had to be used to lash the persons arms to the cross beam for added support.
It was discussed that utilizing a cross beam was far more torturous than fastening the hands straight overhead. As an example, in gymnastics, a gymnast hanging by overhead bar or rings, can comfortably stay hanging longer, than a gymnast doing the ‘Iron cross’ with arms straight out.
They also showed that the feet were normally nailed to the sides of the stake; they had depicted the nails going through the ankles. It said that the crucified would have difficulty breathing so they would often push up using their legs to help exhale. It was stated that this was the cruellest part of the process. By nailing the feet in the manner just described, when the person would push up, injured nerves in both the ankle/feet and wrist/hands would be reactivated, resulting in intense pain shooting through the entire body making breathing part of the torture process.
Described with the physical description of this machine, its location and oriention were planned to give the condemned the most weather exposure (sun, wind etc) to help wear them down.
Gravity was as the main force that caused torture & ultimately death. Since the crucified slumps lower and lower as time passes, a sign fastened to the crossbeam would be located above the condemned persons head.
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Aaron Walton
Do you know who the History Channel source is? They ought to be quoting someone of ancient times since no crosses remain till this period (I think they have only found one used nail). The History Channel has some really bad sources (my mother was watching an episode and everyone was a Kabalistic Jew) and think that Adam had a wife before Eve (and everyone else thinks so because of the History Channel).
I like the 'Tau' better than the stake, it is a lot more plausiable than Jesus carrying a telephone pole (or the equiviant there of). Though it may be better that we do not use Renaissance art (1400 years after the fact) to gain any idea what Jesus or the cross may have looked like.
Correct me if I am wrong, is it not true that the whole reason they change it to a stake is because crosses are pagan? If so, when did the Romans care about what you kill people with? Why would they not use something pagan?I am curious about the little monkey demon playing with the skull. Do you think it is a message of some kind? Were the artists trying to tell us something?
Concerning the monkey and the skull... In various paintings you will see a skull in the bottom (e.g. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_drsACX1RqfU/Sd7dWo0nWqI/AAAAAAAAB5s/lYi5FYfikWg/s400/GolgothaVDyckA.jpeg) if I am not mistaken, the argument is namely because it is indeed 'the place of the skull' and that is the best depiction of it. Why is there a monkey is a good question.
