I commented about apostates today at the meeting

by cognac 82 Replies latest jw friends

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    hi jack

    rubbish! I can think anything I like (although i'm still answerable to God and Jesus for my thoughts) that does not make me an apostate as others have said it's when I start talking about my disagreements and trying to make others see it that way creating divisions in the congregation by my viewpoint. the original poster deliberately used a meeting to put his own viewpoint for everyone to hear. Aside that it wasn't even biblically correct he was also wanting others to know his different viewpoint. It's borderline but he is walking a tricky path and knows it.

    Jesus appostles struggled with their differences to each other Jesus saw this and the whole greek scriptures talk about the congregation being one body, one temple with one message. thats why it's the leaders that decide the everyday application of the scriptures like on how laws were still applied and why circumcism was no longer an issue. As leaders they have that right! Paul had to decide whether to expel members or not but was he a loved and valued leader?

    I can't remember atm were the scriptures are but people were disappointed by Paul in person he struck a very mundane figure outside of his letters. can anyone remember the scripture I meant?

    But because Paul was obviously an ordinary imperfect person should the followers have decided he had no right to lead? and walked their own road become active apostates to the faith spouting what they thought the message was?

    How many on here even believe a faith in God and preach it? or do you just want to be in opposition to witnesses or leaders as your defining road to walk?

    Some have said I am apostate for being on here as far as I know I am cautioned not to go on them at my own personal choice, heavily advised against these sites your right there but I only become apostate if I spread the apostate info deliberately from here which I don't! mainly because I don't agree with it lol.

    hi mindmelda you make a good point

    HI I quit

    yes we should follow our leaders you say wt as most anti-witnesses do but the truth is the wt is only a magazine what is in it is decided by our leaders end of! There decide how to apply scriptural principle to modern times.

    Why do anti-witnesses always say watchtower follower to witnesses? I personally think it's to obscure the fact it's perfectly scriptural for our leaders to apply biblie principle for the flock and they don't want to acknowledge that because not only are they in oppostion to Jw doctrine which is their choice but also reject leadership?

    Hebrews 13:17
    Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

    this one scripture shows we have to obey our leaders, so anyone saying to me you follow the wt are just lying, JW's follow the leaders as directed by God and his son for the flock to do until Jesus returns becasue they are the leaders of the religion I consider most biblically correct at this time. They will beocme leaders after armageddon in heaven so people will still be under the authority of leadership.

    If I'm not correct in your eyes show me a scripture which allows us to disobey leaders and create divisions by our actions! I challenge you!

    Reniaa

  • mrsjones5
    mrsjones5

    "The BORG was the one not only acting as an apostate towards the scriptures, but they elevated themselves ABOVE GOD so as to have people follow them instead of God. Apostates towards the BORG are doing so not to have people follow them, but to shine light upon the very ones causing the divisions and trying to take the place of God."

    Bravo! Well said!

    Josie

  • wobble-reborn
    wobble-reborn

    Hi Cognac !

    Yes very well said ,both times,your comment at the Meeting and the one above,succinctly and accurately put.

    Please do be careful when the shepherding visit takes place , do not give them a way to "discipline " you, I am sure you are well equipped to deal with the Elders, but I found it useful to research on here for advice before my last visit (a year ago?) and because of that I answered in such away they could do nothing, they left empty handed.

    Good luck !

    Love

    Wobble

  • boyzone
    boyzone

    Nah, I was gonna rise to the bait with ole Hi Jack but won't waste my time.....

  • Tea drinker
    Tea drinker

    It is not just speaking about one's contrary thoughts which makes one an apostate in the Society's eyes. Just thinking and believing differently is viewed as apostasy.

    May I refer you to Crisis of Conscience (page 342) where Ray Franz reproduces a letter sent to all travelling overseers in 1980. The letter reads in part "to be disfellowshipped for apostasy, an apostate does not have to be a promoter of apostate views......if a baptised Christian abandons the teachings of Jehovah, as presented by the faithful and discreet slave, and persists in believing other doctrine despite scriptural reproof, then he his apostatising."

    There you have it. Just believing differently makes one an apostate. There is an underlying understanding among the Witnesses that to doubt the Society openly is dangerous therefore many supress their true feelings and therefore cannot make real friends within the organisation. This is what I have seen in my years as a Witness and this lack of self-expression is in my view one of the reasons why some Witnesses become so depressed.

    People simply cannot speak their minds lest they be booted out for apostasy.....it is an unhealthy envionment, gripped by fear.

  • MissingLink
    MissingLink

    Note the top of page 2: Apostacy can be just thinking something contrary to exact WT doctrine.

  • reniaa
    reniaa
    Acts 20:29-30 (New International Version)

    29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

    How would they know if someone disagrees? it clearly says they "should not go on a witchhunt inquiring into personal beliefs" they say it has to be something reasonably substantial that comes to their attention. so no they are not being thought police. the implication is there that apostasy is clear and obvious in the person by word or deed before any action is taken.

  • John Doe
    John Doe
    29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

    Reniaa, do "savage wolves" include entire denominations? How would we recognize them?

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Taking verses out of context again, eh Reniaa. Here let me help you:

    Romans 16:17I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.

    What kind of divisions? Contrary to what teachings??? Of Christ. Just like ROmans 14 spoke of divisions and freedom of conscience....watch out for those who try to cause divisions- those who hold to the Law.

    1 Corinthians 1:10
    I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.

    You forgot a few verses.

    10
    4 I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose.
    11
    For it has been reported to me about you, my brothers, by Chloe's people, that there are rivalries among you.
    12
    I mean that each of you is saying, "I belong to 5 Paul," or "I belong to Apollos," or "I belong to Cephas," or "I belong to Christ."
    13
    6 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

    Oh, so Paul is saying not to form sect- we are all in Christ....he is not saying uniformity in beleif but rather to put aside the differences of opinion and unite in Christ, despite the differences- that is the purpose. He is telling the disciples not to form sects over the differences of opinions...but unite in purpose...in the mind of Christ.

    Philippians 4:2
    I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to agree with each other in the Lord.

    over the Lord....not over birthdays, holidays, bloos, 1914, field service, meeting attendance, disfellowshipping, politics, war, the trinity, hellfire, immortality of the soul, faith vs works, the governing body, 7 gentile times, other sheep, 144,000

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Hebrews 13:17
    Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

    this one scripture shows we have to obey our leaders, so anyone saying to me you follow the wt are just lying, JW's follow the leaders as directed by God and his son for the flock to do until Jesus returns becasue they are the leaders of the religion I consider most biblically correct at this time. They will beocme leaders after armageddon in heaven so people will still be under the authority of leadership.

    If I'm not correct in your eyes show me a scripture which allows us to disobey leaders and create divisions by our actions! I challenge you!

    Reniaa

    My reply: Reniaa, how many times have i refuted on this verse yet you continue to use it? Again Reniaa....

    verse 7 of the same chapter

    7
    Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

    This qualifies the obedience to your leaders to the extent that they speak the word of God- not their own opinion or interpretations. If what they speak is not clearly the word of God you are obviously authorized to disobey and refute. JWs follow the WT, which is the commands of the GB. And no, they will not become leaders in heaven after armageddon, ruling over an earthly class....I guess you needed to throw in that statement to get your time huh?

    Now you show me a verse where it is unacceptable for one to speak up to and refute their leaders who are preaching other than the word of God? I challenge you.

    Acts 20:29-30 (New International Version)

    29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

    How would they know if someone disagrees? it clearly says they "should not go on a witchhunt inquiring into personal beliefs" they say it has to be something reasonably substantial that comes to their attention. so no they are not being thought police. the implication is there that apostasy is clear and obvious in the person by word or deed before any action is taken.

    My reply: 'savage wolves" "not spare the flock" "distort the truth" "draw away disciples after them" sounds like the Jehovah's Witness religion to a tee!

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