Wanted: JW apologist to explain how Michael is Jesus is Michael

by Mad Dawg 50 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Mad Dawg

  Everything JW's teach comes from the Bible only. Where in the Bible does it say that Michael is Jesus?
• 

  Tuesday

  It doesn't say that Jesus IS Michael anywhere in the Bible. I'm sure Reniaa will point this out that Jesus AND Michael are both attributed with leading God's army at Armageddon, both attributed with casting Satan from heaven and the last scripture they say is that Jesus is described as having an archangel's voice. Since there's only one archangel in the bible, he must be Jesus.

  What they don't account for is numerous times in the bible people are attributed with doing the same thing, and just because Jesus had an archangel's voice doesn't mean he's an archangel it is just a way to describe Jesus' voice.

  My argumentation is that, "there are far more numerous intances of Jesus being described the same way as Jehovah is, yet we don't say that Jesus is Jehovah, this is just cherry picking the evidence, INCLUDING all the evidence supporting Jesus is Michael and EXCLUDING all the evidence that Jesus is Jehovah as mere coincidence or similarity."
• 

  insearchoftruth

  Don't you realize he returns with the voice of an archangel, which means he must be an angel.....but also with the trump of God, so by following the same reasoning, he must also be God.......

  Am very interested to see this, one of the arguements they use is that Michael is the only archangel, but in the book of Jude where Micheal is actually mentioned, they refer to Enoch, and the book of Enoch, though not part of the cannonical bible, lists seven archangels.
• 

  insearchoftruth

  But one caution, and Tuesday warned me of this and I failed to heed his warning, don't attempt to argue this point with a well trained (won't say educated witness), this is one of the points that they prepare for, and they will not listen to any logic at all with respect to it...
• 

  Will Power

  I'm not sure if the orwellinan offices of the WT are still at war with eurasia but their belief is stated plainly here:

  On the CD, (newer one 99 or 2000) taken from WT June 15, 1979 as well as the purple Interlinear:

  ***it-2 393-4 Michael***
  [Who Is Like God?]

  “……………At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 the voice of the resurrected Lord* Jesus Christ is described as being that of an archangel, suggesting that he is, in fact, himself the archangel. This text depicts HIM as descending from heaven with a commanding call……..”

  Who is HIM?
  If one checks the footnote attached to the word Lord* in this verse one sees that it is none other than Jehovah HIMself who descends.

  Using discernment with this little gem among many others, one can only test this spirit to see where it originates.

  Any thoughts? Is this a 20 yr old typo? More deception? Just one more place where they missed editing the NWT? 1st Century conspiracy? Denial? Angel worship?
• 

  carla

  Let's see, first Jesus was Michael in Heaven then became Jesus on earth, during that time Michael what? killed himself or ceased to exist? then Jesus died and God remembered Him and cloned someone like Him but not really Him, instead made a new (not the same Jesus who was crucified on the cross) Jesus who is no longer really Jesus but now some hybrid Michael/Jesus character? in any case the Jesus who really lived on earth and was crucified no longer exists.The person/spirit claiming to be Jesus after His death and showed the Apostles His hands & the nail holes was really a deceitful spirit needed to trick the Apostles into thinking the same Jesus who died on the cross still Lives. That doesn't make perfect sense to you? You didn't realize God needs to trick people into believing in a hope in the afterlife? It's not as if nearly every culture on the face of the planet has some view of an afterlife or something. Geesh, you'd think it was written upon our hearts or something that nearly all humans (untouched by the hands of the wt) believe in an afterlife.

  Oh yeah, let's not forget He comes with the voice of an angel, He also comes with the sound of a trumpet, therefore he not only is a special hybrid angel/savior who has the voice of an angel but is also trumpet.
• 

  Chalam

  Hi,

  Once again, reading this passage as a whole will surely help

  1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (New International Version)

  The Coming of the Lord

  13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

  Ah, here we go, Jesus is the firstborn of many brothers, the first-fruits of those who have fallen sleep Romans 8:29 1 Corinthians 15:20 Colossians 1:15 15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. Interesting that the NWT change this Lord in the Greek to "Jehovah". Is that correct? See next verse.. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Who is coming down from heaven with a "loud command", also "with the voice of the archangel"? Jesus Revelation 3:11 Revelation 22:7 Revelation 22:12 Revelation 22:20 Acts 1:11 Matthew 24:27 Notice it says, "with the voice of the archangel". Quite obvious Jesus is not the archangel as neither is He a "loud command"! 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words. I will leave you to decide who you think this Lord is, try here if you need some clues Revelation 21 All the best, Stephen
• 

  reniaa

  Hi guys

  the Jesus is michael debate is a logical construct and you are right tuesday trinity is also a logical construct. they are both scripturally drawn rightly or wrongly.

  there is a difference though jesus being michael is just adding another name to jesus and he has loads.

  Making god into trinity is actually changing God from what the jews and then Christans themselves believed because none of the writers talk using any trinitarian rhetoric it was an unknown doctrine to them.

  Michael is an intersting construction and one that I find facinating.

  the archangels voice isn't just the thes scripture.

  1 Thessalonians 4:16
  For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of thearchangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

  note that we hear an arhangels voice and the dead rise.

  John 5:25
  I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live

  The dead hear a voice and they rise and the john scriptures show the voice they hear is Jesus's.

  next we have Daniels discription of Michael.

  Daniel 10:10-22 (New International Version)

  10 A hand touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees. 11 He said, "Daniel, you who are highly esteemed, consider carefully the words I am about to speak to you, and stand up, for I have now been sent to you." And when he said this to me, I stood up trembling.

  12 Then he continued, "Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. 13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. 14 Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come."

  15 While he was saying this to me, I bowed with my face toward the ground and was speechless. 16 Then one who looked like a man [a] touched my lips, and I opened my mouth and began to speak. I said to the one standing before me, "I am overcome with anguish because of the vision, my lord, and I am helpless. 17 How can I, your servant, talk with you, my lord? My strength is gone and I can hardly breathe."

  18 Again the one who looked like a man touched me and gave me strength. 19 "Do not be afraid, O man highly esteemed," he said. "Peace! Be strong now; be strong."
  When he spoke to me, I was strengthened and said, "Speak, my lord, since you have given me strength."

  20 So he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; 21 but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.

  here an angel an Angel calls michael Daniel's Prince. 'Your prince' (Remember the much quoted isaiah script that call Jesus a prince?)

  Daniel 12:1-3 (New International Version)

  Daniel 12

  1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise [a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. so again here michael is specifically assigned to humanity and he is also a major player in end times when the dead will rise, so when the bible talks of an archangels voice michael who is the only named archangel in the bible and here is clearly linked to the event too. Next we have jude. Jude 1:9
  But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" Here michael is disputing with the Devil over moses. michael and the Devil clearly have a troubled history with each other. Next in revelation

  Revelation 12:7-9 (New International Version)

  7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

  NOw michael is in charge of an army of angels and they fight Satan and hurl him from heaven down to earth. this is what the bible says on michael

  This next information is my own speculation there is clearly an angel of god in the hebrew sriptures that speaks on behalf of God, moses burning bush etc We also know Jesus is linked to being the Angel that helped protect the israelites stay safe from the egyptions I forget the sriptures involved. Jesus is also called the 'Word' of God, one who would speak on god's behalf! And one whose is said to raise the dead, the archangels is hear though?

  This would certainly qualify him for all his help to be an Angel said to be as Daniel writes 'The great prince who protects you people.'

  this is all still a construct so judge for yourselves :)

  Reniaa
• 

  isaacaustin

  Hi guys the Jesus is michael debate is a logical construct and you are right tuesday trinity is also a logical construct. they are both scripturally drawn rightly or wrongly. there is a difference though jesus being michael is just adding another name to jesus and he has loads. Making god into trinity is actually changing God from what the jews and then Christans themselves believed because none of the writers talk using any trinitarian rhetoric it was an unknown doctrine to them. Michael is an intersting construction and one that I find facinating. the archangels voice isn't just the thes scripture. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of thearchangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. note that we hear an arhangels voice and the dead rise. My reply: but in Rev 19 this archangel is shown and so is Jesus...pay attention to verse 17 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.” 17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.” Verse 17 is the archangels voice John 5:25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live The dead hear a voice and they rise and the john scriptures show the voice they hear is Jesus's. My reply:Still a very weak link to make the assertion that they are one and the same, especially in light of Rev 19. next we have Daniels discription of Michael. Daniel 10:10-22 (New International Version) 10 A hand touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees. 11 He said, "Daniel, you who are highly esteemed, consider carefully the words I am about to speak to you, and stand up, for I have now been sent to you." And when he said this to me, I stood up trembling. 12 Then he continued, "Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. 13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. 14 Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come." 15 While he was saying this to me, I bowed with my face toward the ground and was speechless. 16 Then one who looked like a man [a] touched my lips, and I opened my mouth and began to speak. I said to the one standing before me, "I am overcome with anguish because of the vision, my lord, and I am helpless. 17 How can I, your servant, talk with you, my lord? My strength is gone and I can hardly breathe." 18 Again the one who looked like a man touched me and gave me strength. 19 "Do not be afraid, O man highly esteemed," he said. "Peace! Be strong now; be strong." When he spoke to me, I was strengthened and said, "Speak, my lord, since you have given me strength." 20 So he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; 21 but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince. here an angel an Angel calls michael Daniel's Prince. 'Your prince' (Remember the much quoted isaiah script that call Jesus a prince?) My reply: 'one of the chief, or foremost princes'- not unique but at least one other is like him.... Daniel 12:1-3 (New International Version) Daniel 12 1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise [a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. so again here michael is specifically assigned to humanity and he is also a major player in end times when the dead will rise, so when the bible talks of an archangels voice michael who is the only named archangel in the bible and here is clearly linked to the event too. My reply: great Prince, not king of Kings and Lord of Lords... Next we have jude. Jude 1:9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" Here michael is disputing with the Devil over moses. michael and the Devil clearly have a troubled history with each other. My reply: Michael did not rebuke the devil...Jesus did at will Next in revelation Revelation 12:7-9 (New International Version) 7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. My reply: verses 5-6 say 5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. This seems to distinguish this male child who is to be ruler from Micahel, a captain angel. NOw michael is in charge of an army of angels and they fight Satan and hurl him from heaven down to earth. this is what the bible says on michael This next information is my own speculation there is clearly an angel of god in the hebrew sriptures that speaks on behalf of God, moses burning bush etc We also know Jesus is linked to being the Angel that helped protect the israelites stay safe from the egyptions I forget the sriptures involved. Jesus is also called the 'Word' of God, one who would speak on god's behalf! And one whose is said to raise the dead, the archangels is hear though? This would certainly qualify him for all his help to be an Angel said to be as Daniel writes 'The great prince who protects you people.' this is all still a construct so judge for yourselves :) Reniaa My reply: Heb ch 1 makes several contrasts between Jesus and the angels (regardless of the angel's rank) which seems to me to make it plain Jesus can not be Michael.
• 

  Chalam

  Hi Reniaa,

  As I have just posted

  For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of thearchangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

  note that we hear an arhangels voice and the dead rise.

  Do you think that the Lord is coming "with a loud command" or is the loud command?

  Do you think the the Lord is coming "with the voice of the archangel" or is the archangel?

  With regard to the other verses, there is not a single verse that says that Christ, The Lamb, the Son Of Man, Jesus was, is or will be the angel Michael. You are just cross referencing verses and assuming that one is another.

  However, there are verses which refute what the WT have done in saying Jesus is an angel.

  There is a whole chapter to counteract this kind of heresy which started long ago. Read it and decide it you are really following the traditions of men or the teaching of Almighty God.

  Hebrews 1 (New International Version)

  Hebrews 1

  The Son Superior to Angels

  1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

  5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
  "You are my Son;
  today I have become your Father"? Or again,
  "I will be his Father,
  and he will be my Son"? 6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
  "Let all God's angels worship him." 7 In speaking of the angels he says,
  "He makes his angels winds,
  his servants flames of fire." 8 But about the Son he says,
  "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
  and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
  9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
  therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
  by anointing you with the oil of joy." 10 He also says,
  "In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
  and the heavens are the work of your hands.
  11 They will perish, but you remain;
  they will all wear out like a garment.
  12 You will roll them up like a robe;
  like a garment they will be changed.
  But you remain the same,
  and your years will never end." 13 To which of the angels did God ever say,
  "Sit at my right hand
  until I make your enemies
  a footstool for your feet"? 14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

  All the best,

  Stephen