Wanted: JW apologist to explain how Michael is Jesus is Michael

by Mad Dawg 50 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  kurtbethel

  Reniaa, if you accept that Michael and Jesus are the same person, then you would be obligated to accept the same organizational teaching, as found in the Revelation Climax book, that Jesus is also Abaddon. (the angel of the abyss) So you beleive in this supernatural being who is Jesus-Michael-Abaddon, a 3 in one person. You may do that if you want, but that puts you in a position where you have no credible basis to criticize trinitarians. Do you really think your 3 headed god is better than theirs?

  The Jesus-is-Michael doctrine does not stand up to any honest hearted scrutiny of scripture.
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  SallySue

  What about "In the beginning was the Word"? It doesn't say, "In the beginning was Michael."
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  JosephMalik

  Issacaustin,

  In your reply to Reneaa you said:

  My reply: Heb ch 1 makes several contrasts between Jesus and the angels (regardless of the angel's rank) which seems to me to make it plain Jesus can not be Michael.

  In this chapter of Hebrews, angelic beings are not being called angels and Jesus is not being contrasted to them. At this higher level of discussion the writer is calling the fathers of old like Moses, Abraham and such by the word angels which can also be translated as messengers. This in fact is what every Jew was as well since they were in a Law covenant relationship with God. The context is set with the first verse. 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Jesus who made the worlds of mankind is being contrasted to such great men who lived in the world of times past. It is only such a comparison that could fulfil such words as: 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. And among such Hebrews men like Abraham did have an excellent name and God protected and lead them as you should know. Heb 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Therefore your comparison does not apply in this case and Jesus can be identified as Michael if one so chooses based upon the evidences already provided after erroneous assumptions are removed. With the Trinity out of the equation then such a comparison is possible and makes sense.

  Joseph
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  Earnest

  The description of Jesus as the Word makes him both the message and God's chief messenger (of the good news [Isaiah 61:1], of the new covenant [Malachi 2:5; 3:1], etc.) That is what the "Word" embodies. And both the Hebrew and Greek terms for Arch-angel is chief messenger. If it is understood that archangel is describing a function rather than a nature then I can see no objection that Jesus is indeed God's archangel.
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  reniaa

  hi earnest well in the words "messenger of the covenant" the messenger word used is one that in other places is translated Angel so Jesus is said to be the Angel/messenger of the covenant.

  To be honest I fully accept Jesus is an Angel since the actual meaning of Angel is ambigious and can just mean powerful spiritual beings who are messengers of God. And Jesus himself calls himself messenger. And as you say Michael is picked out as being the Arch'messenger' the only being in the bible to be done so.

  I think the logical construct that shows Jesus to be michael is very strong and I accept it. Jesus having another name it's not going to rock any aspect of my belief that he is God's son and already has many names. in fact michael itself means 'who is like God' If at some point there is a refinement to show we must wait on Jehovah to show whether this construct is right or not I will not have my faith stumbled.

  I know many trinitarian Christans that also think Jesus is michael they have to create a lot more rhetoric to handle Jesus being an archangel as well as God but they do it lol

  Don't People find it gives them a headache having to constantly explain the trinity without any scriptures to explain the doctrine fully?

  And while I recognise the trinity is also a logical construct there are places I know Jesus denies he is God and he admits to being god's son only and God himself calls him god's son. I cannot accept a construct that changes the very God I believe in and makes to many contradictions and oxymorons out of the bible and also I find the construct very faulty in it's assumptions. Reniaa
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  Chalam

  Hi Reniaa,

  With only five references to the archangel Michael in the whole bible you have very little to work with in trying to explain Michael is Jesus.

  It is clear there is not a single verse that refers to Michael and any of the names of Jesus, the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega, the King Of Kings, the Lord of Lords, the Prince of Peace, the Lamb of God, Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God.

  Daniel 10:13 (New International Version)

  13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.

  Daniel 10:21 (New International Version)

  21 but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.

  Daniel 12:1 (New International Version)

  1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

  Jude 1:9 (New International Version)

  9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

  Revelation 12:7 (New International Version)

  7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.

  Also, we have the clearest evidence in Jude that Jesus is not Michael with "the Lord rebuke you!". You do not believe that because you think your NWT is correct. Maybe you should check the greek? Examine verse 4 from Jude. I will use the KJV to start with because it is close to the greek as we will see. King James Bible
  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Now check the greek for each "Lord". You will see the first which relates to God is despotes and the one which relates to Jesus is kurios. OK now verse 9 King James Bible
  Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. Which greek word is here? Kurios, check for yourself. Still think that word should be "Jehovah" like the "most accurate" bible, the NWT? Check every kurios in Jude? I count six. Every reference to "Lord" in Jude directly refers to Jesus in the text save the verse 9 we are discussing here and verse 5. That one speaks of the Lord delivering His people out of Egypt, but some early manuscripts have Jesus instead of Lord.

  Jude 1 (New International Version)

  Footnotes:

  1. Jude 1:1 Or for; or in
  2. Jude 1:4 Or men who were marked out for condemnation
  3. Jude 1:5 Some early manuscripts Jesus

  Let us not forget Hebrews 1 which is a whole chapter devoted to Jesus not being an angel.

  You think it is a headache explaining Jesus is God but I have literally hundreds of verses which do that and explain the Trinity. For Michael and Jesus? I think you need a citation for Trinitarians who believe that Jesus is Michael because I have never heard of a single one. Anyhow, battle on. This is a core doctrine and we need to get it right (or wrong). If you miss the real Jesus you miss the way to the Father. All the best, Stephen
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  Earnest

  Hi reniaa, I also have no problem with Jesus being an archangel in the sense of being the chief messenger of God. However, I would have thought that if the scriptures are identifying Jesus as being Michael the archangel then that would have been clearer. He may be Michael but I cannot say that it is obvious when reading the Bible that that is so. Just as I reject the teaching of the trinity because I think there would have been no doubt about it if it were true, so I should really apply the same reasoning to the identification of Jesus with Michael.

  Chalam, you mention that some early manuscripts have Jesus instead of Lord in Jude v.5. It should then also be mentioned that in verse 9 which you imply refers to Jesus as "the Lord" that the codex Sinaiticus as well as some later Greek mss (322, 323, 1241, 1739, 1881, 2298) read "God" (ho theos) instead of "the Lord" which is always used of the Father.
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  Aurelius

  Reniaa,

  1 Thessalonians 4:16

  For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of thearchangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

  If with the voice of the archangel supports Jesus being Michael

  then using the same logical construct, trumpet call of God supports Jesus being God

  -A
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  Chalam

  If with the voice of the archangel supports Jesus being Michael

  then using the same logical construct, trumpet call of God supports Jesus being God

  Awesome!

  Really, the actual truth is there on every page, unless you are indoctrinated in "the truth".

  Proverbs 12:17 (New American Standard Bible)

  17 He who speaks truth tells what is right,
  But a false witness, deceit.

  The thing is the JWs do not believe Jesus.

  John 12:44-46 (New International Version)

  44 Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45 When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

  I believe Jesus and the Father. When I see Jesus I will see the Father. Jesus is the light, not the WT.

  All the best,

  Stephen
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  reniaa

  Judges 7:18
  When I and all who are with me blow our trumpets, then from all around the camp blow yours and shout, 'For the LORD and for Gideon.' "

  2 Samuel 6:15
  while he and the entire house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouts and the sound of trumpets.

  i recommend you guys look up the use of trumpets in the bible ^^

  announcements and happenings are accompanied by trumpets but in this case I would have agreed that might be an argument for coincidence on archangels voice accept for the qualifying scripture.

  John 5:25
  I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

  1 Thessalonians 4:16 (New American Standard Bible)

  16 For the Lord ( A ) Himself ( B ) will descend from heaven with a ( C ) shout, with the voice of ( D ) the archangel and with the ( E ) trumpet of God, and ( F ) the dead in Christ will rise first.

  the only voice that raises the dead is Jesus's and it is the archangels voice in revelation also michael and JEsus are both in charge of God's army of angels in revelations. Also both are given special attachment to humanity.

  the trumpet argument is weak!