by Newborn 55 Replies latest jw friends
I recommend reading the website Talk Origins.org. A good place to start is 29+ Evidences for Macro Evolution.
I once read a good book on Intelligent Design by Michael Behe called Darwin's Black Box. That was probably the best book I read that supported creation. You should read the best that both sides have to offer in terms of arguments and evidence.
Dave
Sorry folks! I have no idea what happened to that post there I'm not used to this forum and things are a bit fiddly at times!
Here was the reply I had typed up.. in case it doesn't show up there
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Hi Newborn!
I'm no expert, but at this moment in time, I am an atheist and although I am still reading and researching, I find no room to doubt that evolution is a fact and of course as an atheist, there is no divine being involved.
Like you said, we don't need to know all the answers to the "big" questions even though it's interesting to ponder over them and fascinating to come up with answers. Such definite answers are not really going to help us in our day to day activities. I don't think any one religion, book, organisation, scientist or philosopher is going to be able to have all the answers. We are still growing (intellectually) as a species and discover new things all the time. There is no reason to think that we will NEVER find the answers, but rather it might take a good few generations.
And it's ok to be undecided! Spirituality is a personal journey and we all should (ideally) undertake our own research and come to our own conclusions rather than just going with the majority or following something merely because our family believes it etc. Considering the complexities of such subjects, I'm not surprised it would take a good few years to carefully consider all of the evidence. And the good thing about having a personal spirituality and a logical outlook, is that it makes us less rigid in our stance. You could very well start out believing in creation, then evolution and then maybe creative evolution (sorry I can't think of the correct term!). A reasonable mindset is willing to change its position if the evidence shown passes the test of authenticity.
The problem with a JW background, is that although we are taught to "examine" and "research", it has always involved material that is only in favour of whatever is being discussed. This leaves us pretty much uneducated in the details of the opposing argument. In fact, most people who argue against evolution haven't really sat down and read proper scientific material on evolution at all!! They base their decision solely from books that favour creationism and parrot ideas heard from other sources who are also probably ill informed. Hence you get evolution myths like humans sprang up from monkeys and complex life springing up from chance. As far as I know (and I could be wrong), evolution doesn't answer how life "originated" but rather answers how life "diversified" and adapted to form the plethora of species and sub species we find around us today.
Taking any life form, for example the domestic cat (I like cats! ), you find various types/breeds of cats. Also the domestic cat shares many similar features with other members of the feline family like leopards, tigers, lions and wildcats. If you go back in "time" these different "family lines" seem to converge or point to a common ancestor. That ancestor could be one in a level of other ancestors that also eventually converge to yet another common point and so on. It is basically a tree structure and theoretically if you go back far enough, all life started out from one particular type of life form. It seems outrageous from the outset, but if you don't already know, all life on earth shares very identical "building blocks" in gene structure and dna. Despite our vastly different outer appearances, under the microscope, we share many similarities.
To me, that indicates that slight changes in genetic structure over time creates outward physiological changes. These changes could either help or hamper an animal/plant descendant in their survival. Obviously, the negative changes fail to carry on for long, because the animal is most likely to be easily captured and eaten by predators or succumbs easily to diseases and infections. The positive changes that helps an animal/plant escape predators or survive a disease flourishes because that life form lives long enough to have more children, hence the positive abilities get passed on to them. The creature has "evolved" to survive better. The "changes" also can take place to suit a creature's environment. If there are many tough big nuts to eat, having tiny teeth or beaks isn't going to help. The animal/bird with a slightly bigger beak or stronger jaw will be more successful in eating such food, and more likely to survive. Such progressive improvements carrying through the family tree and result in parts "branching" off to become more specialised for their location. That's what I've taken from my research so far.
There is so much information about, so take your time to read and understand. You might find some authors that you agree with and others that you don't. Some "theories" might make sense and others may proved to be flawed to you. Also, I agree that the "scientific" nature of the subject puts many people off, as they feel the material can be too overwhelming and specialised for the layman to grasp. However, there are books around that are geared for the "less technical" and can usually be an enjoyable read. The book of all books, Charles Darwin's Origin of Species (Note how it says species and not life!) is supposedly very non technical although sometimes a bit tedious. I have the book but haven't yet read it, but I'm looking forward to it.
Life is a journey and from birth until death, we are constantly exploring and learning new things. Take your time and read as much as you can, from both sides of the camp. Talk to people here, or on other forums who can point you to new material or ways of thinking. The transition from believer to non-believer or vice versa is never overnight. Reading about evolution or the big bang doesn't automatically make you an atheist.
Sorry for the long post, but I wish you well on your journey. It helps if you have a love of books and reading like I do. I'm currently on the Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins which is a little hard going for me at times, but very interesting nevertheless!
Good luck
This website is probably the best there is that deals with the subject.
The alternative to Creation is ultimately - Nothing Made Everything - which defies the basic rules of science. The key one being cause and effect - Every effect MUST have a cause. For anyone to come on to this forum and say the evidence for evolution is "overwhelming" is overstating it a tad!!!! Richard Dawkins admitted that - There is plenty of "circumstantial" evidence for Evolution but no absolute evidence. So it enters into the realms of faith - believing something we cannot explain, see or prove totally.
I do not know a lot about this subject, but what I do know is there is more than enough scientific evidence to debunk that roughly 6000 years ago a man was created and put in a paradise and after time one of his ribs was taken to create a woman. Yes, maybe at one time there was a creation of something, but not in a garden of eden 6000 years ago....
It is important to distinguish between the the theory of evolution (an already well proven theory) and the various abiogenesis hypotheses. Evolution tells us nothing about the creation of life it merely explains how species have evolved over time due to natural selection (not due to chance!)
The big bang theory (another well proven theory) has nothing to do with evolution or abiogenesis but explains why the universe is expanding.
Darwin questioned his own theory extensively (as any good scientist should) and did extensive experimentation to prove that his theory correct; the idea that he 'recanted' on his deathbed is a complete fantasy refuted by his wife (a commited christian).
Despite what Excito claims, Dawkins doesn't claim to disprove the existance of god just that god is extremely unlikely. Although the same poster seems a little confused since he goes on to say that Dawkins says that god may exist.
As a small child I remember a school teacher saying that she had no problem with the idea of god using evolution which made more sense to me than what my parents were telling me. I must admit I have a little difficulty in understanding why a theist would feel that their god should be limited to a six day whirlwind of special creation rather than saying 'my god is sufficiently wise and clever to use a natural process to populate the earth'. But hey I'm not a theist so I don't know why a limited god is better than one who can use whatever process seems best.
So you dont have to make a choice, if you are happy that your god used evolution then you dont have to deny the facts of the evolutionary process. Here is a link to a site talking about a bug that has evolved to consume nylon waste (an entirely artifical polymer invented in the thirties)
Of course it does mean that the whole story of the garden of eden is somewhat suspect but that is a discussion for another thread!
I agree with Scotsman.
Anyhow, go outside, look around :) I see the Creator everywhere, the evidence is compelling IMHO.
Really, did this whole universe just happen by chance? Its too beautiful and awe inspiring from the very big (galaxies, black holes, stars) to the very small (cells, atoms and all that). There is too much form and order also.
The facts science seems to contradict themselves quite often and evolve. Hundred of years ago it was "proved" the earth was flat and the sun went around it.
Answers lead to more questions. What happened before the "big bang"? Where did all this matter come from? How did it get here? Where is here?!
To me science is great, I love it but it is not God. If you have any sliver of faith then invest it in seeking God first is my advise.
All the best,
Stephen
Stephen & Scotsman, go look up the 'God Of The Gaps' argument, then rethink your words.
Creation or evolution…….??? Who knows…….??
I’d go for procreation personally, because if you have enough of that in theory and practice you really wouldn’t care less about all the other stuff…..
