by JosephAlward 22 Replies latest watchtower scandals
I agree that among the average rank and file membership, by the time the GB puts their spin on it they will buy anything the GB says. Why the GB was able to smooth over their failed 1975 prediction and yet most of the rank and file members don't remember or don't want to remember what happened. Weather this will affect the over all membership is yet to be seen. Regardless I still think it is important to expose the WTBTS for the hypocrites they are.
Will
I still think it is important to expose the WTBTS for the hypocrites they are.
Will
You hit the nail right on the head.
Now, I am not a brain doctor, but I can read and learn like the next guy. A few things that the good brain doctors of the world have taught me show that there are different kinds of mindsets in folks.
They say that there are different "types" of personalities. Type "a" is so and so... etc. What affects one JW, so as to make him/her wake up, can prove insufficient for the next. What is ineffectual on one can prove to be a bullet for yet another.
What we would all like to see is something that is completely effective on all JWs. Something so henious that all personality "types" of JWs will awake to the truth.
So far, the UN thingy has come the closest. And I think the interfaith thing is right up there too.
For instance, I tell my Dad all things, and he is now an anti-orger like most informed ones. But when I sent him the link to the interfaith group in NYC where the WTS has asked to be part, well that hit and he even showed my Mom. He was very enthusiastic about it.
My wife, well she is on the edge. I am preparing things for the day I show her more, and I KNOW this, that the interfaith thing is going to hit her hard. Other things don't, but this will.
Reason, ...HYPOCRISY. Dubs can't stand it. The may not be aware of it, and so it can be ignored. Or perhaps it's a tiny hypocrisy ....like the elders making a rule and breaking it themselves.... so they surpress. But when it's blatent hypocrisy, like going to a website for interfaith, which for all intents and purposes would be viewed by most dubs as an apostate site, and finding that the WTS was there 'participating' in online hyposrisy.
Well, I know that if I can get my wife to see, see see it then she would flip. It would affect her. Yet I am not ignorant. There are those dubs, usually newer ones, who would make excuse for this connection too.
I find that these things, Rays's books, the UN and interfaith thing, Mexico VS Malawi, these affect long-time dubs but do almost nothing for the new ones.
I believe that dubs need to chase the carrot for a while, whaste some years of their life, and have been pounded over the head with the WTS's self-righteousness for a good long while, before they appreciate the truth and see the HYPOCRISY.
My wife is almost there.
JA:
You may very well be the most highly educated and most intelligent person currently posting in this forum, but the least educated, average intelligence xjw reader quickly realizes that you don't understand the JW mentality or the workings of the Borganization.
You state:
It's not true, as the poster above evidently believes, that I think that this issue should not be given any publicity. I'm almost always in favor of the truth getting out, though people may disagree about how much energy one should expend to get it out. The lesser of the two points I tried to make was that this publicity is not necessarily going to hurt the Watchtower, and might even help.
... I'm now of the opinion that continued commentary on this matter may only serve to foster an even greater conviction on the part of rank and file JWs that they are being persecuted, and they will increase their efforts to recruit members; this will offset what I think will be a miniscule number of defections by those who will feel betrayed because of the UN affiliation.
Your inconsistency aside, let's consider your assumptions re the Borg:
... continued commentary on this matter may only serve to foster an even greater conviction on the part of rank and file JWs that they are being persecuted, and they will increase their efforts to recruit members; ...The vast majority of readers (I limit the number because I suspect that you have friends here who recruited you over here to diddle this issue. Who? Who shares Joe's core beliefs?) easily see this statement as evidencing no understanding that JWs are continually bombarded to do more, more, more in every Borg magazine or book they read at home and at every Borg meeting they attend. JWs are already conditioned to view every negative thing they encounter as "persecution"; from getting an unexpected bill in the mail to being yelled at during field service. JWs are exhausted from years and decades of giving 110%, and critical "persecution" such as the UN issue will not motivate 111%.
Readers also understand that your argument re the UN issue can be applied to any and all criticism of the Borg. Any resistance to the Borg is futile since it will initiate increased Borg efforts which result in more gains than losses. Of course, the converse is that if we stop all criticism, or even assist the Borg, then... well you get the idea.
... Second, I believe that the Watchtower can easily defend itself. ......My main point was that given the evidence currently arrayed against it, the Watchtower will find it very easy to defend itself, perhaps even without lying--in my opinion. ...
The Borg can easily defend itself WITH ANY ARGUMENT (truth, lie, or the Borgified half-truth) because 97+% of JWs think the Borg is God's mouthpiece, and unquestioningly accept whatever the Borg says as God's word.
The reason why I think there will be few defections is described below.Correct again, but again based on incorrect reasoning.
There will be few defections for a number of reasons, only a few which I will take the time to briefly outline:
First, as indicated above, 97+% of current JWs have already been fully assimilated, and for these, something "extreme" has to occur to their individual lives to break the Borg umbilical cord. Only then will issues such as the UN association have potential to affect them
Second, of the remaining -3%, only a minority will ever hear about the UN or other issues for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the media's disinterest.
... Thus, the efforts its opponents are putting forth are unlikely to come to much, again, in my opinion.... this publicity is not necessarily going to hurt the Watchtower,...
Joe, you are too intelligent for this and your other conclusions. Now, I know you aren't a Watchtower supporter, so what's the agenda for your presence here? Who are your friends here who invited your diddling?
It doesn't take a genius to know that there's more people at stake than current Borgites. There's the countless "potential" Borgites who hopefully will be affected by this and other issues.
Just like every precautionary safety measure that has ever been taken, only an after-the-fact longterm statistical analysis can approximate the number of "accidents" which were prevented. Although we will have to wait a few more years to fully appreciate the impact of this and other issues disseminated via the internet, the Borg's stats for the past 5 years do seem to indicate a trend which refutes most of your arguments.
Of course, you really don't believe them yourself, do you?
Who's your buddies here, Joe?
Those who are highly intelligent, high educated atheists like yourself?
What's their agenda?
just some comments
1.more and more people search the ilnternet
2. what is the tipical profile of those who dont use the internet?
3. the 1975, the generation, and the UN issues will continue to adorn the wt history.
4.i have noticed that jw, including old timers, do not recommend or encourage others to join their religion. In the past they did that, strongly, at every opportunity. they may go to "field service" but dont feel strong about the whole thing.
5. even myself when, after leaving the wt, did not discourage anyone to joint. Now if i have to give an opinion, i would say: think twice, or make sure about what you are doing. INTERNET, BOOKS can make a big difference sonner or later.
6. i was told that a public speaker at a KH told young people to go to college, when people are exposed to information other than wt info at early age...
What!
We cant let this slip off the first page.
BTTTTTT.
Dino
Readers also understand that your argument re the UN issue can be applied to any and all criticism of the Borg. Any resistance to the Borg is futile since it will initiate increased Borg efforts which result in more gains than losses.
I hope readers also would understand that applying my UN argument to any criticism of the Watchtower would be misguided. I think it is clear that all I claimed was that “that continued commentary on this matter may only” help them (emphasis added); there was no hint by me that all criticism is futile. I reinforced this statement in a second post in which I stated that “I'm almost always in favor of the truth getting out.” Let the chips fall where they may.
While I don’t wish to litigate the UN case here, I think it’s appropriate that I explain here that the main reason I believe that this issue may actually help, rather than hurt, the Watchtower is that I think too many of its more vociferous opponents are exaggerating their case against it, and even telling outright falsehoods (though not necessarily deliberate lies). If this is perceived as deliberate deception, then the whole effort may backfire, since I’m guessing that JWs probably hate deceit as much as hypocrisy. I won’t outline here what I think those deceptions are, since I’ve done so many times in the threads listed at * http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/userposts.asp?id=4148&site=3
If anyone wants to debate those points with me, I hope they will either start another thread, or enter one of the existing ones dealing with these issues.
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
As I told you before Alward, your brain is burnt.
You come 'round here flashing your education like a badge and saying "it won't work"... you're a fool. It will work and is already succeeding.
Why don't you go back to school. It seems you still haven't learned.
Joseph,
I undestand your point.
But please face the facts:
I already deprogramed 3 family members and 2 others STARTING with the UN Scandal. Of course JW don't WANT to believe this scandal and WHEN there will be an oficiall response from the WTBTS it will be harder to argu with SOME of them. But we have all those letters, wich show the WTBTS started lying about this issue...
Remember the letter of the portuguese branch, the Gillies-Letter, the Haedquarters-to-Branches letter....
It may be more difficult as the time goes by, but it continues to be a shocking news for JW. LETS USE AND ABUSE IT!!!
Hey Joe,
I think your arguments have weight.
But you forget within your calculation thgat people often want to be betrayed.
Think of the 1975 peak and its following up. Nothing much happend, some left the org and at last today even elders speak on the platform that 1975 was no thing from the Governing Body but from file and ranks.
Brainwashed people are made to believe erverything which is poured out on the platform.
You only can encourage those who open their mind to be like an Beroean: proving what is right. That includes also some kind of braveness which mostly is taken from JWs, as they learned to trust the GB and they dont want to hear doubts and figures and facts against their historical believing.
Even if RELIGION once was said to be founded by Nimrod and today they carry it for themselves like in Europe (e.g. Germany)
The ivory tower has much experiences in steering persons.
And those have forgotten that they have an own responsibility in their relation to god.
This situation is everything else than encouraging, it is frustrating, because the normal JW wants to find gods favor. At last he is guided like a bull at his nosering. but I learned that the trial begins at the house of god, like Peter (I guess) does say.
So we are good when we keep our minds open and when we dont be silent.
Thsi time is over. Wachtower goes to Egypt and that is what makes it falling like ancient Jerusalem.
You must cure the roots of a tree, not cutting off its brown leaves when it is sick.
Watchtower at the moment cures symptomes of their declining members - e.g. 15 minutes a month is a permanent publisher.
But they dont cure the mind of people which are living under lifes pressure and are empty to make hours by hours by hours, preaching a message that nobody wants to hear by magazines nobody reads via publishers with no motivation going from house to house at times no one has time. It is wasted time doing this therapy.
Better would be ministry on informal base.
But learn a GB-Team of nearly a 1000 years age progress. They are old, in winter of life and going the way of Adam. They know that 607 is wrong and they know the consequences.
What they not know is that without Jehovah they are nothing.
By the way, your articles are indeed good. I appreciate this forum and the motivation from most of the writers as I see there is much effort for progress in believe and relation to god.
