My first encounter with JWs at my door in forever

by alpha_1 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  cameo-d

  AlanV: "The point on Apollyon is that these days the Watchtower teaches that this applies to Jesus, and the locusts are the 144000 spreading the kingdom message."

  Looks like another Watchtower flip flop. They keep sticking their foot in their mouth. Actually, I would call this one a major "freudian slip". For those who can read between the lines, they are telling the truth about who they are really serving.

  Apollyon is the Greek word for Abbaddon. So we are discussing the same entity here:

  In the 3rd century Acts of Thomas, Abaddon is the name of a demon, or the Devil himself. Abaddon has also been identified as the angel of death and destruction, demon of the abyss, and chief of demons of the underworld hierarchy, where he is equated with Samael or Satan. In magic, Abaddon is often identified with the Destroying Angel of the Apocalypse. [2]

  In the past Jehovah's Witnesses shared the idea that Abaddon was Satan. [11] Modern Jehovah's Witnesses, take the contrasting view, believing that Abaddon is a name given to Jesus. [12] [13]

  (I think those last two sentences are a good illustration of blasphemy.)
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  quietlyleaving

  yesidid

  I'm not sure that you will get much opportunity in real life becasue Jehovahs witnesses have a warning system wherein they make a note of homes where they have been defeated and advise the group to avoid engaging those ones in conversation. How does that warning system work?

  It used to be that that Jehovahs witness had a formal system of of writing down the numbers of those who were not at home and those who were argumentative wanted to reason from the scriptures as well as those who were "interested". Nowadays Jehovahs Wintesses have an effective informal system of taking down the door numbers of those who are not at home, and those who argue effectively, which is every bit as efficient as the formal system. The Data Protection/Privacy Act put an end to the formal system.

  Yesidid I would think you would know this

  edit:

  the informal system also includes info about householders passed by word of mouth
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  verystupid77

  Great what you did. I remember so many time myself that I would be at the door and I could not answer the questions and I felt so stupid.

  I am so glad you did it but how sad is this religion to make its people go through this.
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  Chalam

  Hi alpha_1 and welcome aboard!

  Great post :)

  Keep it centered around Jesus is the way forward. JWs fail this salvation test on two account.

  Romans 10:9 (New International Version)

  9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

  Amazing they say three simple words from the bible!

  I wondered about this verse before

  1 Corinthians 12:3 (New International Version)

  3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

  Until it was pointed out that they could say it but in all likelihood would be they were lying, i.e. not actually believe it in their heart as Romans points out. I would bear this in mind when bidding farewell.

  2 John 1:10-11 (King James Version)

  10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

  11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

  It is not legalism but I bear it in mind not to wish them well in their work or say "have a good one" etc. I have no problem inviting them into my house as I do not receive their false gospel but, like yourself, expose it. Anyhow look forward to more posts :) So what is your faith BTW? All the best, Stephen
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  designs

  The theology of the Witnesses evolved from the earlier Bible Students of CT Russell's time. Russell wrote that Jesus was the Alpha and Omega and the Almighty of Revelation by appointment. J.Rutherford changed that as he developed his break away group.

  The reality is it just doesn't matter that much about technical interpretations. The Supreme Being is kind and cares for creation including all of us, there is no torture in an afterlife such as taught by Trinitarians.

  Don't get suckered in by this Club of religious Neanderthals.
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  Scarred for life

  Welcome alpha-1.
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  yadda yadda 2

  Getting him to see that David was greater than Jesse is hardly something that proves that Jesus is equal with his Father. You're obviously a confirmed trinitarian (were you formerly a JW?) but engaging JW's on a discussion about the trinity, trying to convince them that Jesus is God, is the dumbest way to start a conversation with a JW and try and put doubts in their mind. The JW's conviction that the trinity doctrine is false is rock solid in their minds and they in fact can employ a range of very convincing arguments, all scripturally based, for disproving the dogma. It is one of their most convincing doctrines, along with the belief that the human soul is not immortal. I wouldn't feel so smug about winning this argument with those JW guys...they probably just walked away rolling their eyes muttering "he was a raving trinitarian nutter" in the same way you think they are nutters. You would have been much better to embarrass them on their child abuse policy, United Nations affiliation, etc. Put genuine seeds of doubt in their mind that will tempt them into going to the internet for further information rather than engaging them straight off on finer points of scriptural interpretation on the trinity.
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  Farkel

  "You can produce all the evidence you want, but it won't change my mind. My imaginery friend is STILL greater than your imaginery friend."

  Farkel
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  alpha_1

  Yadda,

  The witness contended that a son can never be equal to his father. I clearly demonstrated that a son can be greater and that simultaneously they are equal. It was not my intention to engage in a trinity debate.

  I asked simple questions and he refuted his own reasoning. It cannot be more perfect. I did not do anything to rave. He was the one that had abrupt and painful reactions to my questions. If their position is so convincing he should have demonstrated that. I gave him the opportunity.

  The young man with him saw what happened and was probably shocked that his leader was completely ineffective despite the fact that he likely assured him I would be an easy mark against his great bible knowledge.

  I encourage everyone to employ the same simple, careful line of questioning that I demonstrated when encountered. I believe it is the most effective and easiest strategy to employ. The primary tactic is to make them be specific and ask your questions specifically.

  He would not even admit that Jesus is Lord. This is one of the first things you should ask. And this is the crossroad that will determine the direction of your questioning, but you have to stay focused on the principle of "get them to say what they believe regarding Jesus." And no matter what, you have to be completely unaffected by what they are saying to you or they will rub it in and make you lose your composure and then you will forget your next question.

  Ultimately when your questions demonstrate that they cannot really even state a position you bring up the subject of Apollyon/Scorpion beasts and ask them why they believe it but be slow and methodical with each question. This line of questioning demonstrates that they have no legitimate reason for their beliefs because they cannot answer why they believe it, and if they try they are just going to get themselves deeper. He knew I was just going to make his every assertion look invalid by his own words.

  An observing witness would be faced with the fact that their attack is unfounded and their beliefs are simply given to them.