by passwordprotected 57 Replies latest jw friends
Are you just massaging a possible inferiority complex by hoping that highly educated people haven't all turned their back on God? (this isn't meant as an insult--it is an honest question)
No, because my mind is able to expand to accept the idea of God. I don't take it as an insult, btw, or as an ad hominem. Also, the facts - or evidence - speaks for itself. I'm just pointing it out and asking a question.
Key parameter: where? -> America.
Conduct the same kind of survey in Western Europe or in the Middle-East and it will most likely come to very different results.
Scientific education (or lack thereof) certainly affects religious belief, but less than other cultural factors -- which also bear on the kind of "atheists" or "theists" we are speaking of. In Western Europe where only a very small minority of believers are creationists (in the sense of understanding their belief as incompatible with evolution or "natural" cosmogenesis more generally) a better scientific education doesn't necessarily imply a loss of religious belief.
I think that would vary between scientific fields.
I bet a lot more computer engineers, mathematicians, etc are believers in god than are biologists, geologists and paleontologists.
And DEFINITELY more of the former are creationists than the latter.
One problem with this question that that although we have a
cliched mental picture of the job description "scientist", the
actual real world spectrum is rather wide. Many people can
fairly be called "scientists" who work in very narrow fields,
and are never come across any issues in their field that are
really relevant at all to the question of god, or religious
belief.
Now, in theory, all scientists should know how to think
critically, and in fact must do so at very least on the subjects
they work with, otherwise they wouldn't be very good at their
job. However, just because someone is capable of thinking
critically about one subject does not translate into thinking
critically about other things, especially when those things
are insulated by tradition and emotion and family, AND don't
have a relevant negitive effect on thier actual work.
Also, something interesting happens when you break up
the polling to look at "eminent" or "leading" scientist.
(i.e., scientists that are most productive and prolific and
published)
from: Leading scientists still reject God
the question of religious belief among US scientists has been debated since early in the century. Our latest survey finds that, among the top natural scientists, disbelief is greater than ever — almost total.
In 1996, we repeated Leuba's 1914 survey and reported our results in Nature [3] . We found little change from 1914 for American scientists generally, with 60.7% expressing disbelief or doubt. This year, we closely imitated the second phase of Leuba's 1914 survey to gauge belief among "greater" scientists, and find the rate of belief lower than ever — a mere 7% of respondents.
Leuba attributed the higher level of disbelief and doubt among "greater" scientists to their "superior knowledge, understanding, and experience" [3] . Similarly, Oxford University scientist Peter Atkins commented on our 1996 survey, "You clearly can be a scientist and have religious beliefs. But I don't think you can be a real scientist in the deepest sense of the word because they are such alien categories of knowledge." [4] Such comments led us to repeat the second phase of Leuba's study for an up-to-date comparison of the religious beliefs of "greater" and "lesser" scientists.
Our chosen group of "greater" scientists were members of the National Academy of Sciences (NAS). Our survey found near universal rejection of the transcendent by NAS natural scientists. Disbelief in God and immortality among NAS biological scientists was 65.2% and 69.0%, respectively, and among NAS physical scientists it was 79.0% and 76.3%. Most of the rest were agnostics on both issues, with few believers.
Feel free to take issue with their definition of "greater" scientists, and I suppose all this shows
is that the more "successful" and prominent you are in the science world, the less likely you are
to believe in god, and I suppose you could argue that this is because the leading scientific
establishment has a bias toward atheism, thus giving preferential treatment to such scientists,
but that is a moot point considering that the opinion of the scientific community is exactly what
we are talking about here, for whatever that it worth.
The point is, the deeper and higher you get into the sciences, the less likely you are to believe
in god and the supernatural.
[inkling]
Here's the part that isn't mentioned in this post (it's the exact opposite of what is claimed)
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html
Leading scientists still reject God
Nature, Vol. 394, No. 6691, p. 313 (1998) © Macmillan Publishers Ltd.
...
In 1996, we repeated Leuba's 1914 survey and reported our results in Nature [3] . We found little change from 1914 for American scientists generally, with 60.7% expressing disbelief or doubt. This year, we closely imitated the second phase of Leuba's 1914 survey to gauge belief among "greater" scientists, and find the rate of belief lower than ever — a mere 7% of respondents.
Leuba attributed the higher level of disbelief and doubt among "greater" scientists to their "superior knowledge, understanding, and experience" [3] . Similarly, Oxford University scientist Peter Atkins commented on our 1996 survey, "You clearly can be a scientist and have religious beliefs. But I don't think you can be a real scientist in the deepest sense of the word because they are such alien categories of knowledge." [4] Such comments led us to repeat the second phase of Leuba's study for an up-to-date comparison of the religious beliefs of "greater" and "lesser" scientists.
Our chosen group of "greater" scientists were members of the National Academy of Sciences (NAS). Our survey found near universal rejection of the transcendent by NAS natural scientists. Disbelief in God and immortality among NAS biological scientists was 65.2% and 69.0%, respectively, and among NAS physical scientists it was 79.0% and 76.3%. Most of the rest were agnostics on both issues, with few believers. We found the highest percentage of belief among NAS mathematicians (14.3% in God, 15.0% in immortality). Biological scientists had the lowest rate of belief (5.5% in God, 7.1% in immortality), with physicists and astronomers slightly higher (7.5% in God, 7.5% in immortality).
...
I don't know what the percentage is but I do know that there a qualified scientist in both camps. I don't see how anyone can try to use science to prove or disprove God's existence. You can argue the history in the Bible or other religious books or creation stories but whether God exists or does not exist is outside of the realm of science. It boils down to what the scientist has faith in. Atheism is an act of faith just as a belief in God is.
The research shows you're wrong.
Do you have a body of research that you're able to share? I read the one study you mentioned, which was replicated once. The problem is, I can't find a body of evidence to prove what you believe. Nor can I find an instrument to look at, an explanation of study design, researcher bias, etc., etc.
And due to your lack of actual evidence, should we completely disregard your hypotheses/blind guess or should you be allowed to have your world view and opinion regardless of evidence?
Um, are you being sassy? I thought were having a civilized conversation.
I'm not sure what you are expecting me to say in response to that question.
should we completely disregard your hypotheses/blind guess
Hey, whatever floats your boat. I'm just here for the intellectually stimulating discussions; I really don't care what you disregard. Now where's that toe cleavage thread.....
should you be allowed to have your world view and opinion regardless of evidence
Should I be allowed to? Who's going to prohibit me from having a world view and opinion? Is there an Opinion Police Force I don't know about? I don't understand the question.
rebel8: My hypothesis is not only are most scientists atheists, most educated people are.
passwordprotected: The research shows you're wrong.
rebel8: Do you have a body of research that you're able to share? I read the one study you mentioned, which was replicated once.
----------------
Hmm, this might be relevant:
The Harris Poll ® #59, October 15, 2003
DEMOGRAPHIC VARIATION IN BELIEF IN GOD
Base: All Adults
| Belief in God: | Somewhat Certain) | Absolutely Certain | |
All Adults | % | 79 | 66 |
Region | |||
East | % | 75 | 59 |
Midwest | % | 82 | 71 |
South | % | 82 | 72 |
West | % | 75 | 61 |
Age | |||
18 – 24 | % | 73 | 57 |
25 – 29 | % | 71 | 55 |
30 – 39 | % | 76 | 62 |
40 – 49 | % | 81 | 69 |
50 – 64 | % | 82 | 74 |
65 + | % | 83 | 72 |
Sex | |||
Male | % | 73 | 60 |
Female | % | 84 | 72 |
Race/Ethnicity | |||
White | % | 78 | 64 |
African American | % | 91 | 82 |
Hispanic | % | 81 | 66 |
Party I.D. | |||
Republican | % | 87 | 76 |
Democrat | % | 78 | 65 |
Independent | % | 75 | 63 |
Education | |||
High school or less | % | 82 | 72 |
Some college | % | 77 | 64 |
College graduate | % | 78 | 63 |
Post graduate | % | 73 | 53 |
=====
So, it would seem as education increases, belief in god decreases.
Or at least, the professing of belief in god to a pollster decreases,
although still the majority of even very educated people profess
belief in God.
However, your hypothesis seems to be:
"that social pressures continue to lead people to claim to belong to a church/religion even though they really don't believe in God at all..."
Which, although I suspect (and rather hope) that this may be true, how would this be testable?
How are you supposed to find out if people ACTUALLY believe in god?
Until you figure that out, arguing about it seems a cul-de-sac
[inkling]
I think important here is that the polls are not about the biblical god but god as being whatever you consider god. The polls give no consideration it seems to a specific god. The broadness of it needs to be kept in mind and the fact that one's belief in god may not include the jealous one but a much more benign god.
