Is This a Silly Question? (The answer started my fade)

by journey-on 24 Replies latest jw friends

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  journey-on

  But, oompa, weren't they going to need a machete/sword to hack through the thorns and thistles outside the Garden? (Is this another silly question?)
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  White Dove

  The sword appears to be a provision by Jehovah. They could use it to hack through anything, including disobedient children they'll have later. It is a blessing! Which leads to another question: Just who would be hunting down Cain to kill him? Other brothers? He had no cousins, just brothers, kids, and grandkids. I always wondered how there could be so many on earth that he'd have to hide at all. Couldn't he have just traveled aways away and been safe? Who are the others?
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  mindmelda

  I had so many questions like that that were never answered. I was always told I was weak for asking them.

  I guess that's convenient for people with no real answers to some questions.

  My husband's fade started with an elder telling him in response to a legitimate question about why JWs believe that only 144,000 go to heaven (one a guy at work asked him, not even his own) "Because we do, that's why." My husband explained it was someone else's question, and was then told, "Well, if I have to explain things like that to you at this point, you have a serious problem." The answer is as always, "because the Bible says so" but then he asked why that number is taken literally when nothing else in Revelation is. Then he really had a problem, because no one could answer and when they can't, they get upset with you and start smelling apostasy.

  It's was always "our problem" if we didn't understand the incomprehensible or believe the unbelievable.

  I guess it is our problem, in a way. Our problem is the inability to be totally gullible. LOL
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  White Dove

  Could two people have been able to process metal on their own? Divide their ages by 12 lunar months and you get their real ages. There would be no time and they'd get old to quickly. How did they cut anything? Flint rock? Journey on, you really sparked my memory of questions I used to have.
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  mindmelda

  I had that same question about Urim and Thummin, which was a form of divination known as "rolling the bones" and is popular in many cultures and belief systems. Our dice games are the remnant of that form of fortune telling!

  Card games also had their origin in fortune telling, but I've played cards and dice with plenty of JWs. It's silly, because they're just games now, but I've always wondered if Witnesses were aware of the original connnections.

  The fact is, the ancient Hebrews did many things that were later labeled as "pagan" and more often than not mixed in other things with their worship of Yahweh. Rebekah, Isaacs wife brought her female household deities with her when she married Isaac, and no one apparently told her to get rid of them. This was way before the ten commandments and their injunction to forsake idolatry, but still, Isaac and Rebekah weren't condemned for such things. Abraham brought his elderly pagan god worshipping father (he made idols for a living!) with him and didn't make him convert to worshipping Yahweh, either.

  Seems the exclusiveness of devotion asked for by Yahweh developed gradually with the Hebrew people. It wasn't a command until after the exodus, like many other things and prohibitions in the law.
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  cameo-d

  JO: I am glad you asked those questions. And I am glad you got jack-ass answers. Now you're out!

  I am curious to know if elders are taught these methods of deflecting questions. It really seems like the oldest trick in the book...when someone asks a question the elder can't answer, the elder turns the tables and try to make them look stupid for asking it. It is really juvenile.
• 

  HintOfLime

  i liked a post here that mentioned why the hell god invented the sword........adam and eve prob did not have one........so god gives them the prototype of swords that would hack men to death for centuries..........oompa

  This is an awesome question that raises even more questions:

  Why would God even use a sword? Adam and Eve would never have seen metal before (what, they were mining and blacksmithing in the garden?), they would have never seen a blade before, etc. So why would God use an object they would not even recognize as his defense. Wouldn't just the angels be enough?

  Secondly, why would Adam and Eve be ashamed of their nakedness if they were the only people on earth... the whole story is just stupid, really. It's incredible to believe some people think it really happened like that. (Though I think my witness parents realize it didn't, they just won't say it. But they have to know with all the discovery channel shows they watch.)

  - Lime
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  Hope4Others

  Thats an excellent question.....and of course they have no answer to that one....

  h4o
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  cameo-d

  For those who may not be familiar with the U &T, I thought I would post a pic.

  

  The thingamabob on his chest is called the Urim and Thummimin. The squares are stones or jewels that represent each of the 12 tribes. If you had concerns or questions you would go and ask the priest. He would consult the stones. Your answer might be depending on which stone caught the sunlight and shone brightest.

  Abracadabra!
• 

  blondie

  I asked why the Jews used the equivalent of tossing dice to make serious "spiritual" decisions and even Christians cast lots to choose Matthias.

  I got the we don't need to know, but God must have approved it. Then I asked if it was all right why was that the last time it was recorded that Christians cast lots to make a serious "spiritual" decision. Why not cast lots to choose the elders (actually it would be more fair).

  ***

  it-2pp.1143-114URIM ANDTHUMMIM

  Objects used to ascertain the divine will when questions of national importance needed an answer from Jehovah.

  As recorded at Leviticus 8:8, Moses, after placing the breastpiece upon Aaron, put the Urim and the Thummim in the breastpiece. While the Hebrew preposition here translated "in" can be rendered "upon," the same word is used at Exodus 25:16 in speaking of placing the two stone tablets in the ark of the covenant. (Ex 31:18) Some have proposed the suggestion that the Urim and the Thummim were the 12 stones affixed to the breastpiece. That this was not the case is shown by the fact that, in the priestly inauguration ceremony, the completed breastpiece with the 12 stones sewn on it, was put upon Aaron, and then the Urim and Thummim were put in it. Also, a comparison of Exodus 28:9, 12,30 refutes the theory that they consisted of the two onyx stones on the shoulder pieces of the high priest’s ephod. (Ex 28:9-14) They evidently were separate objects.

  Their

  Use. It is notable that the Urim and the Thummim were to be over Aaron’s heart when he went "in before Jehovah," doubtless referring to Aaron’s standing in the Holy before the curtain to the Most Holy compartment when inquiring of Jehovah. Their location, "over Aaron’s heart," would appear to indicate that the Urim and the Thummim were placed in the fold, or pouch, formed by the doubled construction of the breastpiece. They were for "the judgments of the sons of Israel" and were used when a question of importance to the national leaders and consequently to the nation itself needed an answer from Jehovah. Jehovah, Israel’s Lawgiver, would give an answer to the high priest as to the right course to pursue on any matter.—Ex 28:30.

  David called upon Abiathar to employ the Urim and the Thummim when Abiathar, after escaping the slaughter of the priests of Nob in which his father died, came to David with the ephod. Apparently this was the ephod of the high priest.—1Sa 22:19, 20; 23:6-15.

  May

  HaveBeenLots. From the instances recorded in the Scriptures in which Jehovah was consulted by Urim and Thummim, it appears that the question was so framed that a "yes" or "no" answer, or at least a very brief and direct reply, could be given. In one instance (1Sa 28:6) the Urim is mentioned alone, evidently with the Thummim also understood to be included.

  A number of Bible commentators believe that the Urim and the Thummim were lots. They are called "the sacred lots" in James Moffatt’s translation of Exodus 28:30. Some suppose that they consisted of three pieces, one inscribed with the word "yes," one with "no," and the other blank. These would be drawn, giving the answer to the question propounded, unless the blank piece was drawn, in which case no answer was forthcoming. Others think that they may have been two flat stones, white on one side and black on the other. When thrown down, two white sides up would mean "yes," two black sides "no," and a black and a white would mean no answer. On one occasion, when Saul had inquired through the priest as to whether to resume an attack on the Philistines, he received no answer. Feeling that someone among his men had sinned, he petitioned: "O God of Israel, do give Thummim!" Saul and Jonathan were taken from among those present; after that, lots were cast to decide between the two. In this account the appeal, "Do give Thummim," seems to be separate from the lot casting, though it may give indication that there was some connection between the two.—1Sa 14:36-42.

  Served

  toLinkKingdomWithPriesthood. The Aaronic priesthood is referred to at Deuteronomy 33:8-10, which says: "Your Thummim and your Urim belong to the man loyal to you." The reference to these as belonging "to the man loyal to you [Jehovah]" perhaps alludes to the loyalty of the tribe of Levi (from which the Aaronic priesthood came) that was demonstrated in connection with the incident of the golden calf.—Ex 32:25-29.

  Jehovah wisely provided the Urim and the Thummim and placed them in the hands of the high priest. This made the king dependent to a great extent on the priesthood, avoiding the concentration of too much power in the hands of the king. It brought about the necessity of cooperation between the kingship and the priesthood. (Nu 27:18-21) Jehovah made known his will to Israel by his written Word, also by prophets and by dreams. But it seems that prophets and dreams were used for special occasions, whereas the high priest with the Urim and the Thummim was always present with the people.

  Use

  Greater

  Ceasedin607B.C.E.According to Jewish tradition, use of the Urim and the Thummim ceased when Jerusalem was desolated and her temple destroyed in 607 B.C.E. by the Babylonian armies under King Nebuchadnezzar. (Babylonian Talmud, Sotah 48b) This view is supported by what we read regarding these objects in the books of Ezra and Nehemiah. There, certain men who were claimants to priestly descent, but who could not find their names in the public register, were told that they could not eat from the most holy things provided for the priesthood until a priest stood up with Urim and Thummim. But there is no record of their use at that time, and thereafter the Bible makes no further reference to these sacred objects.—Ezr 2:61-63; Ne 7:63-65. HighPriestConsultsJehovah. Jesus Christ is described in Paul’s letter to the Hebrews as the great King-Priest according to the manner of Melchizedek. (Heb 6:19, 20; 7:1-3) In him kingship and priesthood are combined. His priestly work was foreshadowed by that of the high priest of ancient Israel. (Heb 8:3-5; 9:6-12) All judgment of mankind is committed into his hands as such a High Priest. (Joh 5:22) Nevertheless, when on earth Jesus declared: "The things I say to you men I do not speak of my own originality; but the Father who remains in union with me is doing his works" (Joh 14:10) and, "I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me I speak these things." (Joh 8:28) Also, he said: "If I do judge, my judgment is truthful, because I am not alone, but the Father who sent me is with me." (Joh 8:16) Certainly in his exalted heavenly position, perfected as High Priest forever, he continues in this course of subjection to his Father, looking to him for guidance in judgment.—Heb 7:28; compare 1Co 11:3; 15:27, 28.