ROMANS 8:18-25 PROVES 2 CLASS WT TEACHING.. SAYS THE WIFE

by whereami 10 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  whereami

  Can someone help me here?

  Maybe Narkissos or Laolaia can help?
• 

  bob1999

  Romans 8:14 For ALL who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

  17.....and [are] fellow heirs with Christ.

  I find no place in any of Paul's writings where he points to anything but one hope and one salvation, in Christ, by faith, as a free gift from God.

  Peace
• 

  allelsefails

  JWs don't teach this. I could find nothing about this scripture applying to an earthly hope. Jesus is the only one who taught "the meek would inherit the earth" all NT writers noy quoting Jesus give the heavenly hope as the ONLY hope for christians. I personally think little of the NT claim to inspiration, but that is a discussion JWs are not capable of having - generally speaking.
• 

  cabasilas

  Here's a 20 page document entitled:

  "Is Your Hope Bible Based? Questions and Reflections for Jehovah's Witnesses"

  It can be downloaded from:

  http://www.filesend.net/download.php?
  f=7886ed26b3348772e8c1b3a9e55ded78

  It might be useful in these discussions.
• 

  moggy lover

  I'm not entirely sure what point your wife is attempting to make by quoting Ro 8:18-25, but it can't be to establish that there are two classes of Christian believers, because this is certainly not being discussed here.

  Chap 8 of Romans is a discussion of what True Christians call the Doctrine of Sanctification and the specific role that the Holy Spirit plays in this regard. From vs1 to about vs 25 Paul discusses the believer's bondage to sin and its attendant trait- death. Before the believer became a believer he/she was a slave to sin, and consequently walked according to the flesh, which is a path that leads to death. [vss 1-6] However through the grace of God, He has imparted to the believer the Holy Spirit, who by indwelling the believer impels him/her to walk according to the spirit and consequently to life. Unforttunately the Watchtower knows nothing about this doctrine of the In-dwelling Spirit.

  When the Holy Spirit thus dwells in the believer [vs 11] He brings about the miraculous work of redefining the believer according to the ways of the Spirit and not the flesh. This in turn leads to the believer being adopted as a "Son Of God" and like any child who is privileged to inherit the estate of the parent, the believer becomes an heir of God and fellow heir of Christ. [vs 17]

  Now in all this section there is only one "class" of believer mentioned. This "class" is referred to in the first person plural personal pronoun: "us" or "we". The Christian believer cannot read this section, as Watchtower followers do, and apply the third person pronoun: "they" "them" to the text. Either you read it and believe, or you don't read it. But to read it and apply it opportunistically, and selectively, simply because of a precognitive requirement of Watchtower theology is to make a mockery of the Word of God. Having constantly being fed on the monotonous and propagandizing literature of the Watchtower, the Watchtower follower has this remarkable ability to apportion sections of scripture to make it apply as and when it aligns with Watchtower theology. Ultimately that is the epitome of Watchtower success in brainwashing.

  For instance the Watchtower follower will read vs 12 which says: "We are under obligation not to live in accord with the flesh" and the "we" bit refers to the individual Watchtower follower, but mystically, this "we" by some arcane mutation, transmutes into "them" just three vss further. Thus a dichotomy is strained out of the text and forced into a preconceived mould to prop up Watchtower theology.

  We now come to vss 18-25. For reasons that Paul does not specify, not just humanity and the terrestrial abode we all inhabit, but all the physical universe became enmeshed in this decline into decay and corruption, with the whole "creation" being subject to "futility" not of its own accord, but simply because God subjected it to this dissolution. Thus slowly, not just all humanity, but all creation is dying, and slowly running down.

  The expression in vs 19, "eager expectation" [NW "T"] "anxious longing" [NASB] is from the Greek "apek-dech-omai" and is used seven times in the NT and every time refers to Christ's Coming Again [Ro 8:19, 23,25, 1Cor 1:7, Gal 5:5, Phil 3:20, and Heb 9:28]. Thus,"we" the regenerated [born again] sons of God, will be "revealed" when Christ returns for His own. "We" will share His glory, but always as inferiors, and all creation will be restored to its pristine glory as originally envisioned by God. All hope then, not just for "us" but all physical creation, rests not in some "kingdom" or the "vindication of Yahweh's name" but in Christ coming again. Physically, tangibly, corporeally, and personally.

  As can be seen then there is only two classes mentioned in Ro 8:

  1 "We" who are sanctified by the Holy Spirit and made "sons of God" by adoption. [8:16]

  2 Those who are in the flesh. These ones cannot please God. [8:8]

  Unfortunately for Watchtower followers there is NO third group. Those who are in the flesh, but who because they prostate themselves before the "spirit-directed" organization, can please God.
• 

  JosephMalik

  The Christian believer cannot read this section, as Watchtower followers do, and apply the third person pronoun: "they" "them" to the text. Either you read it and believe, or you don't read it. But to read it and apply it opportunistically, and selectively, simply because of a precognitive requirement of Watchtower theology is to make a mockery of the Word of God.

  Moggylover,

  This is true. The Watchtower does not understand Justification which is what Paul is discussing or who should participate in taking the bread and wine. This is a subject that is far more important than the resurrection, something that the rest of the world or the Nations as they are called are also promised. But to make themselves big shots so that they can exercise control over your lives they apply such texts only to their higher ups. This is apostasy on a grand scale on their part. It dwarfs all the doctrines they accuse Christianity of corrupting put together. The one thing that I would change in your post would be the creation mentioned. Instead of applying it to the universe, I would limit it to humanity, all humanity through history in fact. Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. Our Lord came only to redeem the creature, whole creation, humanity as we call it now, and this humanity shall be delivered just like the liberty the children of God enjoy.

  Joseph
• 

  isaacaustin

  whereami,

  She needs to read the first 14 verses for context. There are two classes of people there- Chirstians and nonChristians. There are not two classes of Christians. You are either are led by God's spirit or by the flesh, having peace and showing its fruitage in your life or do not have the Spirit- following the flesh...having no peace and leading to death. Nowehre do this verses indicate 2 classes of beleivers.
• 

  isaacaustin

  JWs will point to verse 16- the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are God's children..." then plainly assert this only occurs with those of the 144,000. It becomes a baseless assertion...
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  Narkissos

  As moggy lover pointed out, the whole rhetorical argument of Romans 8 presupposes only one "class" or kind of believers (or, better, no class or kind at all, since the only apparent "class" or kind difference -- in v. 9 -- is between believers and non-believers). The undisputed premise for the argument (not even Paul's specific or "original" teaching here, but his assumed starting point and common ground with his readers) is that all believers "are in Christ Jesus" (v. 1), under the "law of the Spirit" (v. 2), "in the Spirit, since (eiper)the Spirit of God dwells in you" (v. 9), "Christ is in you" (v. 10), "the Spirit of he who resurrected Christ is in you" (v. 11), "you are led by the Spirit" (v. 14), call God "Abba, Father" in church worship (v. 15) and so on. All of this is not the privilege of a special "class" of Christians, but the assumed common share of all. The argument is not about "who has it" or "how can one know if that applies to him/her" but what are the logical and practical consequences of such an acknowledged condition. From this perspective, the hypothesis in v. 9, "Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him" functions almost as an ab absurdo argument in a Christian context (if that is not true of you, you're not a believer at all); much like 1 Corinthians 12:3 ("Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says "Let Jesus be cursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit" means that all members of the church (and not only those who can show particularly remarkable charismata) have a full share in God's/Jesus' Spirit.

  V. 18-25 extends the perspective of Christian faith (by Paul's definition) beyond individual or communitarian salvation, to a cosmical and universal horizon (as will develop in post-Pauline literature, cf. Colossians 1:20; Ephesians 1:10; 2 Peter 3:13). Ultimately the redemption/reconciliation must encompass everyone and everything. While I can't see any reason to limit it in scope to mankind I don't see any reason to exclude (currently non-Christian) mankind from it either. In Pauline thought there is no room for anybody out of it ultimately, even though the path from here (the work of the Spirit in the Christian church as the "firstfruits") to there (God all in all) is not laid out quite clearly. This difference (a "salvation" currently limited but potentially universal) gave room for new (unscriptural) theories such as Russell's on how one goes from here to there, i.e. how current non-Christians can eventually be "saved" -- hence the ideas of secondary "classes". But making such "classes" of Christians is still one step further away and makes texts such as Romans 8 incomprehensible to Christian readers who assume they are of "another class"...
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  cabasilas

  Thanks Narkissos for these observations. Certainly, the idea of two classes of Christians is foreign to Paul's theology.