Imputation- do you agree? (page 4)

BurnTheShips

If there was original sin, than there'd be no point for anyone to overcome and be good. How else can someone be good, if they're flawed at the core? To use the lame bread tin analogy: if you bake a loaf of bread in a dented tin, you'll have a dented loaf, not a whole, undented loaf. So, if we're all dented, why is it there are so many good people in the world, who both practice good and aspire to goodness?

The other side is: what is the point to aspiring to goodness if we already are? Just sayin'

BTS

caliber

Amputation- do you agree?

I don't believe in head amputations .... without a second opinion !!!!!

Only if the gangrene has taken root. Then it is better to take the limb rather than have it spread.

BTS

JeffT

Anybody know a perfect human?

Using the tools of science we could say that there is good empirical evidence that there is something wrong with all of us.

AllTimeJeff

Hi Narkissos

I think it depends a lot what street you have in mind... :) in an American (and perhaps also Scottish, Swiss, or Dutch, i.e. where Calvinism has had a decisive influence on the general idea of "Christianity") you are probably right...

Your quoting John 3:16 is characteristic: what role does "sin, passed down from Adam," or "ransom" play in the Gospel of John? Strictly none imo. They can be read into it but they are not found in it.

I will bow to that. I found some more reading material on imputation. I don't know if I have the energy or inkling to read it at the moment....

I think that other world views are relevant, and my other post in this thread obviously didn't reflect that there are indeed different views of Christianity. I forget that sometimes..... (being an American and all...) BTS, I also note and acknowledge your similar comments on this......

Funny, I never thought of myself as Calvinist...

Narkissos

Well, this topic happens to be about a notion which is central to Calvinism -- at least more than to any other kind of Christianity...

But of course we as xJWs tend to mix it with WT theology which is actually quite different.

The "forensic," or legal notion of "imputation" -- ascribing guilt or innocence to sb, in a way which is conceptually distinct from the fact of such person being guilty or innocent -- doesn't really play any role in WT doctrine of sin and salvation imo. The WT concept of Adamic sin is not legal offence or guilt, but a sort of material-like, both physical and moral "defect" or "flaw" which the (unscriptural) keyword imperfection encapsulates. Such flaw is then handed down genetically: every man inherits imperfection from Adam and then cannot help sinning, and dying. In such a pattern there is no room for the thought of legal imputation of guilt, since each person simply dies for his/her sins (even if the cause for sin, i.e. "imperfection," is inherited). Christ dying as a "perfect" man and "corresponding ransom" to Adam's lost "perfection" opens up the way back to the original state of perfection (for some) which means the actual end of "sin". This is a completely different story than what is found in Calvin, Augustine and Paul (the many differences between those notwithstanding).

Lillith26

DeputyDog- As a Deist I believe in a creator- even though it's an American saying, "in Natures God I trust". I've been were you are and just like many others on this forum I too bought into the lies of the WTB, but not everything they told us was total BS. In the very begining of my studies I was taught to see the designs in nature as it is full of edvidence of a creator, I was asked to use my own logic/reasoning and to trust my heart to learn about the creator- then I had JoHo shoved down my neck, I was told to just have faith and to not trust my heart as I was full of sin and that the heart lies, I was told that I am not allowed to use my own logic/reason to understand the teaching of the bible as JoHo's thoughts are higher than my own- any of this sound familiar to you??? We all left either physically or emotionally from that cult for our personal reasons- some have moved on to other religions based on the bible, some to the quoran, others to buddasim and some to athesim... I followed my heart and discovered that Deism was the only other logical choice besides atheism.

The God of nature and creator of the universe does not require a human prophet to translate 'gods will or message' to us, it is already written in nature, it is there for all to see, it publishes it's self and will remain long after our world is gone.

Unlike alot of people I am too humble to assign the creator a personal name or gender class! As I said in an earlier post on this tread- I think all revealed religion need to go back and re-think their theology!

Robdar

dear Robdar...
you said: "Since we believe that God cannot forgive us for the sins we commit against another human we must also seek out the people we have wronged and ask their forgiveness."
Leviticus 19:34-37..."The stranger who dwells among you shall be to you as one born among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God. ‘You shall do no injustice in judgment, in measurement of length, weight, or volume. You shall have honest scales, honest weights, an honest ephah, and an honest hin: I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt. ‘Therefore you shall observe all My statutes and all My judgments, and perform them: I am the LORD.”
was Jesus human?...

Dear Michelle:

I am not following the point you are trying to make. Could you be more specific?

Yes, Leviticus chapter 19 tells us the way we are to treat one another. Jesus, a very wise rabbi, made it simple to remember by telling his followers to love one another. If you love your neighbor, you will not cheat or harm him; however, if you do harm another, you are to ask their forgiveness. It isn't up to God to forgive you for wronging another. He will only forgive you for sinning against him. Judaism believes God wants us to take responsibility for our actions and apolgize to the ones we hurt. Taking responsibility for your actions helps you to grow spiritually.

I hope this answers your question.

Love,

Robyn

Deputy Dog

Lillith

I've been were you are and just like many others on this forum I too bought into the lies of the WTB, but not everything they told us was total BS.

Just so you know, I've never been a JW.

Lillith26

DeputyDog-I was never baptised, so in theory- I was never one either! I did the study and have since studied the org along with all the other main religions. I've probably studied Calvanism more than you have- to me it's just a watered down and appologetic version of christianity! you know the kind- "yeah the bible does say that, but your reading it the wronge way...", you know depending on your motives or what point your trying to prove, you can pretty much make that book say anything you like! are you for or against slavery?? on one hand it gives you price list for the value of different aged/gendered people or it tells you to be slaves of christ- wait... the book is for slavery!

(Sorry, sarcasim does not translate well into type- would like God to send you a prophet to explain this to you???)

Deputy Dog

Lillith

In the very begining of my studies I was taught to see the designs in nature as it is full of edvidence of a creator, I was asked to use my own logic/reasoning and to trust my heart to learn about the creator- then I had JoHo shoved down my neck, I was told to just have faith and to not trust my heart as I was full of sin and that the heart lies, I was told that I am not allowed to use my own logic/reason to understand the teaching of the bible as JoHo's thoughts are higher than my own- any of this sound familiar to you???

The cult really doesn't know how to account for the Holy Spirit, or the fact that faith is a gift, not something that men bring to the equation.

The God of nature and creator of the universe does not require a human prophet to translate 'gods will or message' to us, it is already written in nature, it is there for all to see, it publishes it's self and will remain long after our world is gone.

How do you account for evil? Or do you not see evil in creation?

Imputation- do you agree?

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