Do I have to have been baptised to be apostate? New to forum.

by artemis.design 29 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  artemis.design

  Hi there. I am new on here as a member, although I have been on here quite a few times as a guest. Please call me Arte, or Artemis after the female renaissance artist and Roman godess and a bit of a hero of mine. I have abit of a problem with my spelling so sorry about that. IAm also female in my early 30's and from central England.

  I was raised as a witness until I was 18. I had a luck escape as I was never baptised. That was 10 years ago. For the past 10 years I was plescently tollerated by my family just as any other "worldy" person. I think the reason for this was because I never tried to fight my corner. As, with a sigh, they tell me it's not too late, and before I leave for another 6 months, give me that look like they will never see me again. My usual response is that it is my life and if God decides my time is up, I am prepared to accept whatever punishment befalls me. They are usually happy with this in the hope that there may be yet chance for me to come back.

  I have often thought of saying what a load of balls,I am am very happy, and I intend to live a long and prosperous life. It has only recently happened that I have decided now is the time to stand up for what I believe in. There are several reasons for this. Firstly because my youngest brother has now left school, so I consider all my family adults now. Also they have recently given me a copy of the creation/evolution book, which to my bemusement makes out that mankind is only a few thousand years old. And a few other factors.

  While, as I said, I want to start standing up for myself (or just not being condemed to death like an evil criminal would suffice), I don't want to appear completly hostile. Could someone please help with the following questions:

  1) Does one have to have been baptised to be "apostate?" I was never in, not even as a kid. I just went along with it to make my family happy and they all know that. So if I do start "debating" with them I won't have to be "shuned, like so many people on here. (I feel so bad for you guys. My family treat me like a virtual strangers, but at least they are "nice" to me.)

  2) Apostate literature is only that produced by ex JW's. I assume everything else is free game including works by athiests. I say that as in their literature they quote even Dawkins, the most famous athiest blaspherer ever. How odd!

  Thank you for clarifying this for me.

  Oh, also what is GB short for. I have figured most of the others out.

  Arte
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  beksbks

  GB Governing Body

  Welcome Arte, you can hang with us even if you aren't an apostate!!

  I'm not sure officially, but there are plenty of scholars here who will be able to tell you, I'm sure they'll be along directly. Friday evenings are a bit slow.
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  bluecanary

  Apostate is as apostate does. If you say things that sound apostate (anything that indicates the GB does not understand the Bible correctly) you will be labled a dangerous apostate. I think the best way to go about it is to bring up doubts like you're just not sure that you're understanding something correctly, rather than implying that the fault lay with the doctrine or the doctrine-makers. If you are assertive, they will shun you. You have to decide what is more important to you. Being forthright about what you believe or keeping in contact with them. Only you can make that decision.
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  Narkissos

  Welcome Arte,

  (1) You may not be considered technically an "apostate," but I'd recommend you tread lightly anyway; that they don't have to "shun" you but doesn't mean they can't. Plus, a measure of diplomacy can get your points across better.

  (2) I've left JWs long ago, there weren't many "apostates" around back then (I was the first I met :); but thinking back it seems to me that most JWs would have read more easily scientific popularisation by "atheist" authors than non-JW religious works (from "Babylon the Great").
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  Black Sheep

  Hi Arte, welcome to the forum.

  It's nice to have another born-in-unpaptised member. There seem to be very few of us here.

  I had drifted out for about 35 years before I actually investigated the WT and discovered it was bullshit. My first reaction was to inform my family of this fact. It didn't go down well, but they still don't shun me.

  JWs in general, and my father in particular, are very slippery customers. They have numerous ways of changing the subject to something they are more comfortable with. Whatever you are discussing, it will be a constant battle to keep them on subject.

  Here is what I have found:

  Do not try to tell them anything. They won't/don't listen.

  If you want to make a point.... ask a question. One question only. Ask it in such a way that they feel obligated to do the research to find the answer.

  Their normal responce is to ask you a question to change the subject. "We will discuss that after you have answered my question."

  Your question is all important. After all, if they want to convert you, it is up to them to supply you with an answer that you can give to that question if you are asked it, at the door, or by a Bible study. Be sincere about this. Keep your cool.

  My current question for my family is, "Can you please give me a list of Babylonian kings from Nebuchadnezzar to Nabonidus, showing what years they reigned in and how long each king reigned for?" I refuse to discuss any other subject with them until they give me this list. As an example of how they try to change the subject, the last time I asked this question, the responce was, "Why is it important?" My responce? "I will discuss that when you give me the list." I know damned well why it is important, but I refuse to tell him until he proves to himself that his chronology is faulty. If he works that out, he might work out why it is important all by himself, which is what I want. Meanwhile, they don't have an excuse to shun me, because I haven't told them anything Apostate. I have merely asked a question. The ball is in their court and I will just keep whacking it back in there until they miss.

  Do not show them Apostate material. Only show them material they have on their own bookshelf.

  GB = Governing Body

  bOrg = the Organisation

  Cheers

  Chris
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  diamondiiz

  Hello Arte;

  1.You have to be baptised to be considered an apostate otherwise you will be viewed as an opposer. In either way, depanding on individual you may or may not be shunned in either case but generally speaking WT followers will shun anyone speaking badly of the old fools in Brooklyn. Thus far my inlaws still haven't shunned me while my side of the family was never in the Borg so no big deal there :)

  2. Apostate literature is mostly WT old publication which are being used by us who know the deception of the watchtower so if you want to argue your point with WT followers you use their literature. If you want to show your family that WT taught 1874 was Christ's return for 50 years you find old WT publications and use that. You don't need any other books to prove your point. WT points to any ex witness' book as an apostate literature which you may read and use the research that you will find in these books which 99% of the time quote WT publications or legal records which WT can't disprove.

  Your best weapon against Watch Tower mind control is understanding what they taught in the past, why they changed the teaching and what they have not made readily available to the general witness population. Knowledge is power and that's what GB (governing body) don't want the general witness population to have.
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  artemis.design

  Hi there.

  So I suppose you are saying its all in the wording, for example instead of saying:

  The authors of the book you gave me are clearly nutters as they say humans are only 6000 years old and yet stone henge is nearlly 5000 years old so how do you figure that out?

  I should say

  Its a bit confusing. Stone Henge is believed to be over 5000 years old, so how can humans only be 6000 years old?

  And leave it up to them to try and prove to me that humans have only been around for 6000 years.

  Have to be careful though. The last thing I want to do is make them think they can convert me (although perhaps I would enjoy the attention for a while!).

  On another point - that blue evolution/ creation book looks that same as the one I read as a kid, but it sure doesn't sound the same. Have they changed parts of it or am I just imaginig things?

  Arte
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  skeeter1

  I, like you, was never baptised. I stand my ground with my family. I used to REALLY stand my ground. I found that if I stand my ground too much, then the "apostate" bulb goes up in their head. I have to then back off, regroup, and say "high control" and "not being able to debate ideas" are my main problems with the Governing Body.

  I have since learned to not say too much about the JWs. My family does its own thinking and complaining, on their own. I just "nod" in agreement. They have to make it their decision to leave. So, I don't go running to them with every new revelation of mine as to why the JWs are wrong or a cult.

  In short, you get to play a fine line. You will likely not be outright labeled an apostate...but you will be labeled a goat.
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  artemis.design

  A goat? hhhhaaaahha

  Oh ok i get it like in the story of separating the sheep from the goats. haha

  My family are nice, and intelligent people. But I have never heard them complaining or questioning anything. They accept every thing without question. Having said that they are not as strict as a lot.

  The only thing I have ever questioned them about before was the issue of blood, and that was more on moral ground. They were just like, you are not a witness, so you don't have to worry about it. That was the end of that exciting topic.
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  Black Sheep

  Some hints from my experience, Arte.

  How my family avoids answering difficult questions:
  
  1) Ask where you got the question from in the hope that you can be accused of associating with Apostates.
  
  I get my questions by researching WT literature
  
  
  2) Address a related issue that they feel more comfortable with. This makes them feel like they are answering the question because there is noise coming out of their mouths.
  
  I just repeat the original question, if neccessary, pointing out why all that noise didn't answer my question.
  
  
  3) Bring up a scripture that appears to contradict the scripture you are showing them.
  
  I don't discuss their scripture until they have addressed the issues in mine.
  
  I gave up discussing scripture with my father the day it became obvious that he did not believe the Bible. That day, I realised why nobody had ever managed to 'win' an 'argument' with him. He just didn't know he had lost. When cornered by the few people who knew their Bible well enough to trounce him, he just parroted, "These people are Bible scholars!", and that was the end of the discussion.

  Cheers

  Chris