What can be done about those who go berserk with a gun?

by badboy 206 Replies latest jw friends

  • Robdar
    Robdar
    Robdar has kindly posted a media link concerning a smaller UK city - Nottingham - where robbin' Robin Hood famously robbed the rich to give to the poor, so a town not unfamiliar with larceny. Nottingham has become linked with a high incidence of gun crime in the UK - twice the national average in fact, and up to 5 times higher than the safest similar sized towns in the UK.

    I was in England in the summer of 2000 and there was a violent shooting rampage throughout the country by gun toting English thugs. It was terrifying to the citizens and police. But never mind that. Let's get back to what you said:

    gun control + effective sentencing works in other countries

    When showed my link, you back pedaled and poo-pooed. And then added:

    Nottingham has become linked with a high incidence of gun crime in the UK - twice the national average in fact, and up to 5 times higher than the safest similar sized towns in the UK.
    Robdar previously contributed a media link about a armed guard who shot the shooter - the guard admitted to God voices in her head - the shooter we can safely assume also had issues.

    So what if the guard thought she heard God guiding her? The armed guard killed the shooter--effectively preventing him from killing others. So, in this case, more arms was the answer. Not the other way around.

    You are the one cherry picking. Sorry, but I am not going to let you have it both ways.

  • Robdar
    Robdar

    Hmmm, this looks like an interesting book:

    July 30, 2002

    New Evidence on Gun Control II: The British Experience

    By Paul Craig Roberts

    Second of a two part series

    [Click here for part I Important New Book Refutes Gun Control Myths]

    Did you know that a person’s chances of being mugged in London are six times higher than in New York City?

    Did you know that assault, robbery and burglary rates are far higher in England than in the U.S.?

    Did you know that in England self-defense of person or property is regarded as an anti-social act, and that a victim who injures or kills an assailant is likely to be treated with more severity than the assailant?

    Joyce Lee Malcolm blames the rocketing rates of violent and armed crimes in England on “government policies that have gone badly wrong.” Her careful research in Guns andViolence The English Experience, just released by Harvard University Press leads to this conclusion:

    “Government created a hapless, passive citizenry, then took upon itself the impossible task of protecting it. Its failure could not be more flagrant.”

    Professor Malcolm begins her study of English crime rates, weapons ownership, and attitudes toward self-defense in the Middle Ages. She continues the story through the Tudor-Stuart centuries, the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries. She finds that five centuries of growing civility, low crime rates and declining firearm homicide rates ended in the 20th century.

    Professor Malcolm shows that an unprotected public at the mercy of criminals is the result of (1) the 1967 revision of criminal law, which altered the common law standard for self-defense and began the process of criminalizing self-defense, and (2) increasing restrictions on handguns and other firearms, culminating in the 1997 ban of handgun ownership (and most other firearms).

    In England the penalty for possessing a handgun is ten years in prison. The result is the one predicted by the National Rifle Association: “when guns are outlawed, only outlaws have guns.” During the two years following the 1997 handgun ban, the use of handguns in crime rose by 40 percent. During seven months of 2001, armed robberies in London rose by 53 percent.

    These shocking crime rates are understatements, because “the English police still grossly underreport crimes. . . . The 1998 British Crime Survey found four times as many crimes occurred as police records indicated.”

    A disarmed public now faces outlaws armed with machine-guns. People in London residential neighborhoods have been machine-gunned to death. Gunmen have even burst into court and freed defendants.

    The British government forbids citizens to carry any article that might be used for self-defense. Even knitting needles and walking sticks have been judged to be “offensive weapons.” In 1994 an English homeowner used a toy gun to detain two burglars who had broken into his home. The police arrested the homeowner for using an imitation gun to threaten and intimidate.

    A British Petroleum executive was wounded in an assault on his life in a London Underground train carriage. In desperation, he fought off his attackers by using an ornamental sword blade in his walking stick. He was tried and convicted of carrying an offensive weapon.

    A youth fearful of being attacked by a gang was arrested for carrying a cycle chain. After police disarmed him, he was set upon and hospitalized as a result of a brutal beating. The prosecutor nevertheless insisted on prosecuting the victim for “carrying a weapon.”

    Seventy percent of rural villages in Britain entirely lack police presence. But self-defense must be “reasonable,” as determined after the fact by a prosecutor. What is reasonable to a victim being attacked or confronted with home intruders at night can be quite different from how a prosecutor sees it. A woman who uses a weapon to fight off an unarmed rapist could be convicted of using unreasonable force.

    In 1999 Tony Martin, a farmer, turned his shotgun on two professional thieves when they broke into his home at night to rob him a seventh time. Mr. Martin received a life sentence for killing one criminal, 10 years for wounding the second, and 12 months for having an illegal shotgun. The wounded burglar is already released from prison.

    American prosecutors now follow British ones in restricting self-defense to reasonable force as defined by prosecutors. Be forewarned that Americans can no longer use deadly force against home intruders unless the intruder is also armed and the homeowner can establish that he could not hide from the intruder and had reason to believe his life was in danger.

    The assault on England’s version of the Second Amendment was conducted by unsavory characters in the British Home Office. Long before guns were banned, the Home Office secretly instructed the police not to issue licenses for weapons intended to protect home and property.

    In the British welfare state, crimes against property are not taken seriously. Professor Malcolm reports that criminals face minimal chances of arrest and punishment, but a person who uses force to defend himself or his property is in serious trouble with the law. A recent British law textbook says that the right to self-defense is so mitigated “as to cast doubt on whether it still forms part of the law.”

    An Englishman’s home is no longer his castle. Thanks to gun control zealots, England has become the land of choice for criminals.

    Paul Craig Roberts is the co-author of The Tyranny of Good Intentions : How Prosecutors and Bureaucrats Are Trampling the Constitution in the Name of Justice.

    COPYRIGHT CREATORS SYNDICATE, INC.

  • Robdar
    Robdar

    From the English Newspaper, Telegraph:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3573472/If-the-state-fails-us-we-must-defend-ourselves.html

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    If the state fails us, we must defend ourselves

    By Simon Heffer
    Published: 12:01AM GMT 24 Feb 2002

    LAST Monday 82-year-old Violetta Vella was found dead in a pool of blood in her flat in Finsbury Park, north London.

    She had been attacked in her own home, in broad daylight, and repeatedly stabbed in the neck. A gang of youths was seen fleeing from the scene. The estate on which she lived, Six Acres, is infested with drug addicts who rob and steal to finance their habit.

    Related Articles

    Two days after Mrs Vella was murdered, St Albans Crown Court heard how a wealthy man's wife was killed and their teenage son and his girlfriend maimed after being shot outside their home in suburban Hertfordshire. The object of the robbery was a pair of Rolex watches.

    On that same day a drug addict, Andrew Aston, was given 26 life sentences for murdering two octogenarian war veterans in their homes and attacking 24 other pensioners. Aston's father announced, with commendable propriety, that he thought his son ought to be hanged.

    It was also revealed that, 10 days ago, the head of a computer firm, his wife and baby son were ambushed in their home in Twickenham by a gang of eight raiders with an axe, knives and a baseball bat. We have become inured to the daily stories of carjackings, and resigned to the news that street crime in London rose by 39 per cent last year.

    We all know things have become steadily worse since the 1960s. We might, however, be just about to reach that point where enough is, at last, enough.

    To say there is an "epidemic" of violent crime is to push understatement to its limits. As this week's incidents show, it strikes across classes. At the root of it is the drugs problem.

    The crime wave is being compounded by the complacency of politicians, by the bullying of the police into attitudes of craven political correctness, and by a creaking criminal justice system. Now we have reached a situation in which few can feel safe even in their homes, and this could be the breaking point.

    Most of us had an implicit assumption that there was a contract between law-abiding people and the state. In return for our restraint, the state would use the various means at its disposal to control crime. It would police our society properly. It would severely punish those who attacked us.

    It must, though, be clear to all that the state has broken that contract. When it comes to crime, we are no longer dealing with good, honest criminals. We are dealing with degenerates who view crime not only as a way of life but also as a recreation.

    They have no regard for the property or even the lives of others. All of them are wicked. Many have their wickedness exacerbated by mind-altering chemicals. Above all, they engage in murderous, anarchic behaviour because they are confident the police will not catch them or, if they do, that they are highly unlikely to be condignly punished for their horrible crimes.

    Since the contract has been broken, what should the public do about it? Ideally, we should persuade our rulers to enforce policies that deter people from committing such crimes: but they won't.

    Mr Aston's repulsive son will not be hanged. Nor will the murderers of Mrs Vella. Nor will the drug dealers who are at the root of so much of this evil. Nor will the police be given the resources to put more men in uniform on the streets.

    Nor, even if they were, would they be encouraged to take the sort of pre-emptive, aggressive action required against the perpetrators of so much inner-city crime, because many such criminals happen to be from those sections of society dealt with by the Macpherson Report.

    The Government absolutely lacks the political will to deal with the violation of one of the most fundamental liberties of the people it governs: their right to feel safe in their own homes.

    Given this scandalous situation, it is time for the Government to confer a new right on the people: the right to bear arms. Gun control in this country is in any case a joke. There is far more gun crime now than there was before the idiotic law passed by the Major government to ban handguns after the Dunblane massacre.

    The police obsessively regulate shotguns and rifles held by sportsmen who have no intention of killing anyone with them, while failing utterly to control illegal weapons. In America, the two states with the highest level of gun ownership - New Hampshire and Vermont - have the lowest levels of crime.

    One of the most murderous places in the United States, Washington DC, has the most rigorous gun control in the Union. For a householder to shoot a burglar in most states in the US is regarded not so much as permissible as part of his civic responsibilities.

    There is, as a result, very little burglary in America. In this country, when a man shoots a burglar who is part of a gang with more than 100 previous convictions between them, it is he who goes to jail - for life, until Tony Martin's sentence was reduced on appeal.

    Many of these appalling crimes are committed by junkies, which might lead some to argue that they would be insufficiently rational to respond to greater deterrence. They may well not respond when they are on drugs, but that is their problem.

    In any case, this is not about the criminal, but about protecting the victims. The point is not to have a retributive free-for-all, but rather to bring a real threat of deterrence. The principle of protection could be extended.

    While it might be unacceptable for motorists to carry a gun - even though many criminals routinely do - certainly a driver stopped by a carjacker or, indeed, a pedestrian attacked by a mugger, should be able to spray mace in his face, or use a stun gun on him without fear of prosecution for having used an illegal weapon.

    The present weighting in these crimes of the rights of the criminal over those of the victim ignores the new realities: it cannot, in a just society, be allowed to continue.

    Ideally, the Government would give the police the resources and moral backing, and the courts the draconian powers, to stem these depravities. As it shows no signs of doing so, it must allow people to defend themselves.

    If that means criminals getting killed or horribly injured, so be it. As the saying goes, they have a choice: their victims don't.

  • Priest73
    Priest73

    Hello, I haven't read this thread, but I can only assume that it's anti gun?

    just curious. My guns and I are about to go to bed for the evening.

  • beksbks
  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    LOL @ beks!

  • Priest73
    Priest73
    LOL @ beks!

    Yes. She looks funny in a tie.

  • besty
    besty

    ok Robdar - you win - write to the UN and tell them they have international gun crime stats all wrong....and furthermore you have a ton of newspaper articles to help them next time they do a survey - jeez - how did the UN manage to limp along before you got here....?

    DUH.

    You completely failed to address the significance of the international gun crime league table, particularly the relative positions of the UK and the USA.

    You prefer coming back to the lady with the voices? More illustrative of your position perhaps?

  • Robdar
    Robdar
    ok Robdar - you win - write to the UN and tell them they have international gun crime stats all wrong....and furthermore you have a ton of newspaper articles to help them next time they do a survey - jeez - how did the UN manage to limp along before you got here....?
    DUH.

    Your pissiness speaks for itself and tells me all I need to know.

    Thanks!

    http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html

  • sammielee24
    sammielee24

    Correction. In Canada you can get a handgun as long as you have the proper licenses and valid reasons for owning one. It does not have to be based on a job either. My sister has a license to carry a handgun for self protection but must follow strict guidelines for transport. sammieswife.

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