Romans 10:13 - got owned in a jw study. need help with greek.

by bohm 54 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  PSacramento

  Romans 10:13, in EVERY bible commentary you will find, states that it is the Name of the Lord Jesus that saves.

  This is confirmed in Paul's other letters to Philippians and Ephesians, to name just 2, also confiremd by Peter in Acts.

  This is a prime example of the NEW convenant superseeding the OLD one, in the OC, the passage credited to Joel referres to YHWH, in Paul's letter to the Romans it is very clear that Jesus is Lord and in The Lords Name ( Jesus) is our salvation.

  Paul is simple stating that in THIS NEW covenant, Jesus is NOW the saviour and our path to YHWH.

  To translate it the way the NWT does is to deny the New Covenant and to deny the role of Jesus as Saviour, no matter hwo many times it is stated over and over.
• 

  TD

  My take is that the JW is the one attempting to persuade you. Let him do his due diligence. It will be good for him.

  Point out that most other translations use the word, "Lord" at Romans 10:13

  Ask him if he could explain the basis for replacing the word "kurios" in the phrase ...to onoma kuriou sothesetai... (10:13) with "Jehovah."

  He'll reiterate the explanation found in JW literature of how the name "Jehovah" has been "restored" to the NT. Especially when it comes to OT quotes containing the tetragrammaton appearing in the NT. (Sans the tetragrammaton)

  Ask him, "That being the case, why does the NWT fail to do this at 2 Thessalonians 1:9, 1 Peter 2:3 and 1 Peter 3:15?

  If he is really on his toes, he will say, "Because in context those verses refer to Jesus." Narkissos has already explained why Paul's argument in Romans 10 could be viewed the same way.

  If he is not on his toes, he won't have any explanation at all.

  In either event, you could point out that he is masquerading human interpretation has scriptural proof. The insertion of "Jehovah" into the NT is not really a matter of Greek or Greek translation at all.
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  possible-san

  I said,
  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/179417/1/Is-the-NWT-the-best

  The matter which Mr. Chalam describes is always stereotyped.

  Since I got bored about that talk, please tell me another talk.

  I had pointed out to you that only the NWT is not the translation which has restored the divine name.
  Moreover, you should also check the Hebrew New Testament of the UBS (United Bible Societies).
  You should do against the UBS.
  
  
  My website is here.
  Bible translations which have restored the divine name
  http://godpresencewithin.web.fc2.com/pages/link/link03.html
  http://godpresencewithin.web.fc2.com/pages/link/link05.html
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  possible-san

  Probably, in Jews' head/brains, I think that they distinguished the "Tetragrammaton" and the "Lord", even if they said "kyrios", IMO.

  And probably the pronunciation of the "Tetragrammaton" in the 1st century A.D. is "ADONAI" (LORD).

  Moreover, in the Trinity, Jesus is not Jehovah. (PSALM 110:1)

  possible
• 

  ShadesofGrey

  The reason JWs give for replacing 'Lord' with 'Jehovah' is because it's a quote from the OT (Joel 2:32 in this case) which has YHWH in it.

  OK. Let's have a look at some more quotes from the OT.

  Isaiah 45: 21 Is it not I, Jehovah, besides whom there is no other God; a righteous God and a Savior, there being none excepting me?

  22 “Turn to me and be saved, all YOU [at the] ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no one else. 23 By my own self I have sworn—out of my own mouth in righteousness the word has gone forth, so that it will not return—that to me every knee will bend down, every tongue will swear,"

  Philippians 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,"

  Lord is translated from the word kupios

  Revelation 1:8 “I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”

  Jehovah God is translated from the Greek kupios.

  So in Philippians 2:10 why isn't the word kupios translated into Jehovah in Philippians 2:7? Isn't that what they did at Revelation 1:8? And does not the scripture directly line up with Jehovah in the OT at Isaiah 45:21?

  Revelation 22:13 I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. 16 “‘I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to YOU people of these things for the congregations."

  And here the Alpha and the Omega is Jesus, so why does the NWT put the name Jehovah in Revelation 1:8?
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  ShadesofGrey

  1 Peter 3:14 But even if YOU should suffer for the sake of righteousness, YOU are happy. However, the object of their fear do not YOU fear, neither become agitated. 15 But sanctify the Christ as Lord in YOUR hearts,

  (sanctify= set apart as holy)

  Isaiah 8: 12 and the object of their fear YOU men must not fear, nor must YOU tremble at it. 13 Jehovah of armies—he is the One whom YOU should treat as holy, and he should be the object of YOUR fear, and he should be the One causing YOU to tremble.”

  1 Peter 2 4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:

  “See, I lay a stone in Zion,

  a chosen and precious cornerstone,

  and the one who trusts in him

  will never be put to shame.” a

  7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

  “The stone the builders rejected

  has become the capstone, b ” c

  8 and,

  “A stone that causes men to stumble

  and a rock that makes them fall.” d

  Who is the stone over which to stumble?

  1 Corinthians 10:4 The Rock was Christ

  Who is the Rock?

  Isaiah 8:13 Jehovah of armies—he is the One whom YOU should treat as holy, and he should be the object of YOUR fear, and he should be the One causing YOU to tremble.” 14 And he must become as a sacred place; but as a stone to strike against and as a rock over which to stumble to both the houses of Israel, as a trap and as a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

  Isaiah 44: 6 “This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God. 7 And who is there like me? Let him call out, that he may tell it and present it to me. From when I appointed the people of long ago, both the things coming and the things that will enter in let them tell on their part. 8 Do not be in dread, YOU people, and do not become stupefied. Have I not from that time on caused you individually to hear and told [it] out? And YOU are my witnesses. Does there exist a God besides me? No, there is no Rock. I have recognized none.’”

  Moreover, in the Trinity, Jesus is not Jehovah. (PSALM 110:1)

  hmmmm.... it looks to me like Jesus is Jehovah.
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  ShadesofGrey

  Geneisis 18:2 When he raised his eyes, then he looked and there three men were standing some distance from him. When he caught sight of them he began running to meet them from the entrance of the tent and proceeded to bow down to the earth. 3 Then he said: “Jehovah, if, now, I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant. 4 Let a little water be taken, please, and YOU must have YOUR feet washed. Then recline under the tree. 5 And let me get a piece of bread, and refresh YOUR hearts. Following that, YOU can pass on, because that is why YOU have passed this way to YOUR servant.” At this they said: “All right. You may do just as you have spoken.”

  Genesis 19:1 Now the two angels arrived at Sod´om by evening, 10 So the men thrust out their hands and brought Lot in to them, into the house, and they shut the door. 11 But they struck with blindness the men who were at the entrance of the house, from the least to the greatest, so that they were wearing themselves out trying to find the entrance. 12 Then the men said to Lot: “Do you have anyone else here? Son-in-law and your sons and your daughters and all who are yours in the city, bring out of the place! 17 as soon as they had brought them forth to the outskirts, he began to say: “Escape for your soul! Do not look behind you and do not stand still in all the District! Escape to the mountainous region for fear you may be swept away!”

  18 Then Lot said to them: “Not that, please, Jehovah! 19 Please, now, your servant has found favor in your eyes so that you are magnifying your loving-kindness, which you have exercised with me to preserve my soul alive, but I—I am not able to escape to the mountainous region for fear calamity may keep close to me and I certainly die. 20 Please, now, this city is nearby to flee there and it is a small thing. May I, please, escape there—is it not a small thing?—and my soul will live on.” 21 So he (Jehovah) said to him: “Here I do show you consideration to this extent also, by my not overthrowing the city of which you have spoken. 22 Hurry! Escape there, because I am not able to do a thing until your arriving there!” That is why he called the name of the city Zo´ar.

  23 The sun had gone forth over the land when Lot arrived at Zo´ar. 24 Then Jehovah made it rain sulphur and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens, upon Sod´om and upon Go·mor´rah.

  What is my point with all of this? Jesus is God (John 20:28, Hebrews 1 and 2). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4). The Father is God (Ephesians 4:6).

  In the OT, Jehovah is the name of God.

  In the NT, Jesus makes his Father's name known without ever using it. How does Jesus do this? Look at his name. The name Jesus in Greek = Yehoshuah in Hebrew = YHWH + Salvation
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  PSacramento

  If we take the whole of Pauline theology ( and we must when discuss anything Paul said), it is clear that Paul beleived that Christ was Our Lord and Saviour and that it was in HIS name that we are saved.

  It's not a question of Christ's name REPLACING Gods ( Jaheshua instead of Jahveh), but that it is NOW THROUGH Christ that we are saved and it is NOW through HIS NAME that we have salvation.

  This also echoed by Peter in Acts:

  " there is no other name under heaven by which we are saved" ( Paraphrasing).

  Now, unless Paul was STATING that Christ ( who is Lord) is Jahveh of the OT as per Joel satetment, then what we have is salvation given to us VIA Christ.

  The New covenant superseeding the old.
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  ShadesofGrey

  Yes, those were very good points Psac. I do not know why I thought this was a new thread. I went back to see who bumped it, and I guess it was me. hmmm... I do think it will help a friend of mine though, so it is all good. :)
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  designs

  How do you handle Christian's literary conceit.