Romans 10:13 - got owned in a jw study. need help with greek.

by bohm 54 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Satanus

  An interesting tack to take would be to question the motives of the wt org in adding jehovah to the nt. They like to question everyone elses motives. Question their's. For instance their demotion of jesus and jesus' role in the nt, and in the lives of jws. Their hatred of christians, generally. Their elevation of the gb vis a vis jesus. Jesus is what the nt is all about. Jesus is supposed to be whom christians immitate. In view of all of the above, if jesus was left in place, it would make redundent the wt org.

  S
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  Narkissos

  This verse and a couple of others are probably the weakest link in the (generally weak) WT argument for introducing the divine name (DN) into the NT. Not only because there is no material (= ancient Greek manuscript) evidence that the DN was ever there (this is true of all NWT substitutions of "Jehovah" to kurios = Lord), but because rhetorical analysis shows that kurios had to be there in the first place: the whole Pauline argument rests on it. If Joel 2:32 as Paul quotes it refers to "calling upon the name of Yhwh," it has nothing to do with the point he is trying to make, and he has no reason to quote it to begin with. Just watch for the keywords and the logical coordination conjunctions in the whole passage.

  Moses writes concerning the righteousness that comes from the law, that "the person who does these things will live by them." But the righteousness that comes from faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) "or 'Who will descend into the abyss?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? "The word is near you, on your lipsand in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved. The scripture says, "No one who believes in him will be put to shame." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and is generous to all who call on him. For, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
  But how are they to call on one in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in one of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone to proclaim him? And how are they to proclaim him unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" But not all have obeyed the good news; for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.

  Or, the other way around -- If calling on the name of Yhwhsaves (as per the Hebrew meaning of Joel 2:32), it certainly does not follow that calling on the Lord's name by confessing Jesus as Lord does -- quite the contrary in fact. If Paul had quoted Joel in Hebrew wording (including the exclusive DN rather than a title potentially common to God and his Son) he would have shot himself in the foot so to say, rather than "proving" his point.

  Of course JWs practically never read Romans 10:13 in context, nor have they any idea of the argument Paul is actually holding. And they most often (although unwittingly) quote it against Paul: their point is that calling Jesus Lord is not enough to be saved, you have to call on Jehovah instead.
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  bohm

  thank you narkissos! that was the most clear and consice explanation on romans 10:13 i have seen :-D . if i may ask, do you work with greek professionally? I want to read up on this so if it ever come up again i can at least make a good case for the insertion of jehovah not being a *trivial* matter.
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  Gregor

  Don't forget Paul's letter to the Corinthians...
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  reniaa

  Joel 2:32

  32 And everyone who calls
  on the name of YHWH will be saved;
  for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
  there will be deliverance,
  as YHWH has said,
  among the survivors
  whom YHWH calls.

  Romans 10:13 (New International Version)

  13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." [a]

  Acts 2:21 (New International Version)

  21 And everyone who calls
  on the name of the Lord will be saved.' [a]

  both Paul and peter quote this scripture from joel.

  Jesus himself taught his followers to pray to God: YOUR name be sanctified.” (Matthew 6:9) And in prayer on the night before his execution, he said to his Father: “I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world . . . Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me.”—John 17:6, 11.

  Reniaa
• 

  Tuesday

  When he talks about Greek and Hebrew just ask him what formal training he has in ancient Greek and Hebrew. When he tells you none, ask him how he knows that the translation he's using is correct. Follow up with what translator is he using, what are their qualifications. How does he know the translator he's using is right and others are wrong?
• 

  reniaa

  2 Timothy 2:19 (New International Version)

  19 Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," [a] and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."'

  Numbers 16:5 (New American Standard Bible)

  5 and he spoke to Korah and all his company, saying, "Tomorrow morning the LORD will show who is His, and (A) who is holy, and will bring him near to Himself; even (B) the one whom He will choose, He will bring near to Himself.

  here is another occurance and here the chapter makes it clear it is God we are talking about when it quotes from the hebrew scriptures.

  Reniaa
• 

  Big Tex

  Romans 10

  1 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

  5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or 'Who will descend into the deep?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

  14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

  16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
  "Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
  their words to the ends of the world." 19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,
  "I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
  I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding." 20 And Isaiah boldly says,
  "I was found by those who did not seek me;
  I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me." 21 But concerning Israel he says,
  "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people."
• 

  watson

  Thanks Gregor, now I won't be able to read that scripture without getting a......
• 

  PrimateDave

  Unfortunately, I can see valid points on both sides, much as I hate to admit it. It's kind of like one of those optical illusion drawings where if you look at it one way you see an old woman, but if you look at it another way, you see someone else.

  Drop this. It's ultimately meaningless if you are atheist. I would prefer to pick apart the old blue Creation book by exposing its out-of-context quotes instead.