thank you Sola
for a thought provoking and balanced post.
Reniaa
It's WT leaders, not elders, who are responsible for all the harm. My Geneva, Switz. lecture posted here for new ones & Sola Scriptura to read
by AndersonsInfo 77 Replies latest watchtower scandals
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ninja
hey....another thing sola....it's "bear with me".....not "bare with me"...............
nasty phrase to put in a thread dealing with paedophilia.............
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besty
I say let's put it to the public: do you approve of pedophiles knocking on your door?
Door knocking full stop should be outlawed, except for children at Halloween. There are too many elderly and otherwise vulnerable people getting ripped off in their own homes.
Don't interrupt me. I will find what I want when I want it.
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leavingwt
Besty wrote:
reform is not possible
Exactly.
The sooner more people realize this depressing fact, the sooner they can move on with their hopes and dreams in life.
The train has left the station. Set down your WT baggage and grab a taxi to Reality.
-LWT
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AllTimeJeff
Guys, lets not get on the "you misspelled a word" freight train.... (bare/bear) We all misspell words, and it doesn't matter.... It comes across as petty to me, esp on a post that thoughtful that Sola offered.
I thought your post was intelligent Sola, and I have one semantical observation that might help move us on
Culpability vs Responsibility
Culpable/Culpability: Deserving of blame or censure as being wrong, evil, improper, or injurious. See Synonyms at blameworthy
Responsible/Responsibility: 1. The state, quality, or fact of being responsible. 2. Something for which one is responsible; a duty, obligation, or burden.
I use the above definitions to hopefully wade through what often times turn into semantical run around arguments where JW's are concerned here.
Including myself in my time as an elder, I was responsible, in that a duty was explained and laid upon me to handle the obligations of an elder, including those of dealing with any pedophiles who were JW's, whether in my congregation or in the prison I went into.
However, this duty, with all incumbant actions, were not the idea of the elders. They were the ultimate brainchild of the Governing Body.
So while there is some responsibility that the elders must assume, most sign up to be shepherds. No training is ever given. As recent lawsuits bear (bare) out, the Governing Body, through the Legal Dept, has no qualms when push comes to shove to try and throw these undertrained, underqualifed elders under the bus for not following their directions, which courts have recognized as not being a sound argument. At a certain point, their responsibility and culpability ends, insofar as they only do what they are told.
I think that it is a pointless exercise to say who is or isn't a "good", or "great" elder within the JW hiearchy. Even if one is ultimately a "good" elder by following their conscience and reporting a pedophile in a non reporting state, I assure you, if it were found out, they would be removed or severely censured.
The fact that we even have to make this kind of distinction as to good and bad elders reveals a systemic sickness within the JW organization. Elders didn't invent this organization, although they choose to participate in it.
If elders didn't invent the organization, the rules and bylaws, the letters that they get, yet are called upon as volunteers to follow and obey the directives they get, who is culpable for the instructions they get, and the procedures they must follow?
The Governing Body.
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Pistoff
My whole point about "good" or "great" elders is that the WT sees only two types: those that follow direction and those that don't.
Those that follow direction, Sola, will NOT report a suspected pedophile in a non reporting state, no matter what you think; if they cannot verify, by their flawed methodology, if he is a pedophile, he will not be reported.
They will follow the WT's direction or they will be removed. All of this of course is their right, since they call the shots. But since they call the shots, they are responsible for the decisions.
That is the point of the thread.
And it gives the lie to your idea of a good elder following his conscience; his conscience never enters the matter; it is the WT's policy that dictate.
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wha happened?
Although not a child molestation issue I was dealt with, I received the very legally correct answer to a questioned posed by the elders to the GB.
I had an ex wife who was sueing me and members of my family for revenge because she got caught boning her best friend's husband and got df'd. Well during her legal rampage she was reinstated. (So much for works that befit repetance.)
The elder body on my congregation wrote a letter because basically, a publisher was bragging bout how she was going to make another publisher pay for her own ill behavior. She had made it quite clear that her goal was to destroy me for life.
With this, the elders not knowing what to do, wrote the legal dept. Their answer was classic.
Because my ex and I had gone to "Caesar" to resolve our differances, the congregation should stay out of it until "Caesar" is done.
Well I don't know what country everyone else lives in, but in the US u have to go to court to get a divorce.
Well the elder who got the phone call back reluctantly gave me the answer. I asked why it was a crime to go to "Caesar". He only repeated what he heard. I went on about the other sins of going to "Caeser" such as:
Giving birth. That child needs a birth certificate and a ss# provided by.............."Caeser".
Need an education? Sure ya do. And that diploma is handed to u by an organization that is funded by, and regulated by........."Caesar"
How do u get to work? A car? Wow so u need a license by................"Caesar"
Heck even to die u need Caesar for the death certificate to be "officially" dead.
So I asked the elder why I'm getting penalized for utilyzing a process that the WT cannot legally perform. His only asnswer was to do what they said and wait for "Caesar" to finish.
Well I did. I waited. And when it was finalized I walked into the congregation and asked for two elders to state my accusation. I was told to "examine my own motives".
So I have seen how the WT hides behind authorities when it needs to. It's a very legal organization with attorney's who guide it along the right side of the legal fence regardless of the impact on members. Legal decisions get handed down and so much for the publishers.
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flipper
ANDERSON"S - Thank you much for this very informative thread and information.
To you JW apologists who stubbornly refuse to admit facts about your organization - please just chill and have the dignity and respect which the Anderson's deserve for all the information they have brought out in order to assist victims of child abuse. You think by putting out your lame justifications that you'll change the unjust actions of the WT society ? Believe me - the WT leaders don't even know you exist. You are a speck of dirt to them. They would throw you under the bus way before any of us would
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purplesofa
The policies coming from the leadership in the WT organization has victimized more than the child of pedeophiles. It has had a huge ripple effect.
I can't help but go over and over in my mind the last two commandments that Jesus gave his followers, to love your neighbor as yourself and to love Jehovah with you whole might and soul.
I can't find where this commandment has been kept, by keeping to the policies they initiated and followed, they have failed to show love to the children, the families, the congregations, the elders, the lawyers who defend, the laws of the land, and even to the pedeophiles themselves by giving them an avenue to continue to what they know is harmful and wrong.
This would not be taken with such disgust if this organization was not professing to contiually be the mouthpiece of God and under the leadership of Jesus.
There can be nothing but love and respect for Barbara and those that have worked so deligently and tediously to help all those that are victimized.
It saddens me that Sola and those like him have to pick through a commentary, and attempt to discredit it. The WT stance for sure has not been a loving arrangement for followers like these.
I can't help but think of the example of how Oprah Winfrey handled the abuse that was done to the girls at her school in Africa. The abuse was exposed and action was quickly taken to resolve and foremost to protect the children. It is a horrible act to harm the children, but the buck stopped there. The girls were not afraid to report it, the school was not asked to do rediculous things to coverup, the authorities were informed and the pedeophiles were not allowed to victimized the girls or themselves any longer.
Barbara, you are a wonderful person, who can only be filled with huge amounts of love that you spread to others.
purps
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Big Tex
Barbara can answer far better than I can, so I do not want to hijack her thread.
The WT Leadership "Official" policies protects ALL of the following:
1) Victims of Child Abuse (Green)
2) The "Rights" of Anyone, accused of something, of which has not
be proven or substantiated. (ie Innocent until Proven guilty) (Blue)
3) Repentant former Child Abusers (Although rare, they DO exsist) (Red)Sola with all due respect, you continue to ignore reality. On another thread are several experiences of real people who have been mowed over by Jehovah's Witnesses. Real Life Real People put a lie to this statement. IF your conclusions were accurate, those mistakes that had happened, would have been addressed. They were not. Nor will they ever be addressed.
The problem is still going on, despite all the "protection" official policy offers. It will continue to happen. We may disagree about policy but this reality will continue to happen, unless and until such time as the "official policy" changes.