The WTS's start of the "70 years"

by Doug Mason 43 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    Hardly, the message was both relevant and pertinent to those exiles in Babylon.

    No, no, the message was for the messenger to take back to the survivors in the ruins. You are saying that God was sending a messenger on a long dangerous journey to deliver a message of doom to people who were already gone. Of course, you know that already.

    They at last now recieved by means of a fled escapee astonishing news that Jeremiah's long awaited propohecy had just or now been fulfilled proving that Jehovah is the great Timekeeper. Are you not thrilled about that? I am!

    Getting excited is a poor substitute for answering the question.

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    Hey bohm!

    "There was an old thread where Scholar was quizzed about what scholars he was referring to, and he claimed there was also scholars outside jw who supported the 607 date. After some time he provided a list."

    Now I'm laughing all over again about that list...

    Here's that awesome thread where scholar-not, post 1714, lists "non JW scholars who support 607" about half-way down this page: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/175650/17/70-years-3d-607

    Their "credentials" start getting reviewed on the next page: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/175650/18/70-years-3d-607

    Another personal favorite of mine was when scholar-not selected as "proof" another "scholar" (we might assume this was an early "celebrated JW scholar) to support the JW NWT "stake" rather than the accurate translation of "cross": http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/172823/1/Changes-to-the-Kingdom-Interlinear

    Back on topic of this thread,

    Leo said: "You are saying that God was sending a messenger on a long dangerous journey to deliver a message of doom to people who were already gone."

    Of course, Leo, you need to remember that all the inhabitants were gone... BUT... they were still invisibly present! Seriously, that is how a "celebrated JW scholar" would respond... but, of course... "celebrated JW scholars" are visibly absent! That's why it's so hard to get answers from them, after all, they "must remain unknown and unknowable", you know, unknown and unknowable like Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, and Mrs. Butterworth.

    B the X

  • scholar
    scholar

    AnnOMaly

    Post 1075

    The audience whom Ezekiel addressed were his fellow exilees in Babylon who received news by means of that escapee or messenger that judgement against Jerusalem happened as foretold by Jeremiah thus by the time brought the news on the fifth day of the tenth month thus the seventy years would have already commenced on the seventh month, 607 BCE.

    You all seem to ignore the simple fact as to the timing and the audience to which Ezekiel was concerned. It is not rocket science.

    scholar JW

  • scholar
    scholar

    bohm

    Post 169

    What I am saying is that their identity and qualifications are unknown and unknowable.

    scholar JW

  • AllTimeJeff
    AllTimeJeff

    (fake) Scholar

    Wow! It was 606 BCE after all. Looks like you guys had it right the first time. Sorry....

  • scholar
    scholar

    Leolaia

    Post 13411

    No, the message of Ezekiel was for the benefit of those exiles in Babylon and it contained an oracle which was addressed to those remaining Jews in the land who had not repented after seeing their city fall. In those few months of their habitation in the land they were reminded that the land had to become desolated and their eviction would occur. So it was by the time of October those Jewish fugitives had to leave the land and flee elsewhere. Please note that Ezekiel 33:25-29 contains the oracle involving those Jews who were still the land after the Fall until their eviction in October of that year, the previous report of the escapee is a separate event occurring after the oracle addressed to the inhabitants.

    Answering the questioni is what scholar is all about.

    scholar JW

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    No, the message of Ezekiel was for the benefit of those exiles in Babylon and it contained an oracle which was addressed to those remaining Jews in the land who had not repented after seeing their city fall.

    The oracle was dated to the tenth month, i.e. December. The oracle states that there were still Jews remaining in the land. Ergo there were still Jews remaining in the land in December. It's not that hard to understand!

    And no, the message was directed straight to those survivors still living in the land:

    "The word of Yahweh came to me: 'Son of man, the people who are living (present tense) in those ruins in the land of Israel (i.e. the land is still inhabited in December) are saying (present tense), "Abraham was only one man, yet he possessed the land (i.e. Abraham was given the land though he was only one man living in it). But we are many (i.e. there are many of us survivors in the land); surely the land has been given to us as our possession (i.e. we are living in the land and think we possess it as Abraham did)" '. Therefore say to them (the message is to be given to those still living in the land), "This is what the Lord Yahweh says: Since you eat meat with the blood still in it and look to your idols and shed blood, should you then possess the land(this addresses the claim of those living in the land who think they possess it)? You rely on your sword, you do detestable things, and each of you defiles his neighbor's wife. Should you then possess the land?' Say this to them (again the message is to be given to those living in the land): 'This is what the Lord Yahweh says: As surely as I live, those who are left in the ruins (again, this acknowledges that there are still people living in Judah in December) will fall (note, this pertains to the future) by the sword, those out in the country I will give to the wild animals to be devoured, and those in strongholds and caves will die of a plague' " (Ezekiel 33:23-27).

    Yahweh tells Ezekiel to "say this to THEM"....the "them" is clearly not those in Babylon but those still "left in the ruins" who think they possess the land because they are living in it like Abraham of old.

    In those few months of their habitation in the land they were reminded that the land had to become desolated and their eviction would occur. So it was by the time of October those Jewish fugitives had to leave the land and flee elsewhere.

    Which is absolutely false because several months later in December, Yahweh claims that there were still people living in the ruins. Do you mean to tell me that *gasp* Yahweh was wrong?

    Please note that Ezekiel 33:25-29 contains the oracle involving those Jews who were still the land after the Fall until their eviction in October of that year,

    This makes no sense. The oracle was given in December referring to those still in the land in December. I notice that you subtlely change the tense to past tense ("were still in the land until their eviction") from the actual present ("those who are left in the ruins", "the people who are living in the ruins").

    the previous report of the escapee is a separate event occurring after the oracle addressed to the inhabitants.

    It was the night before. Coincidence? Obviously not. God gives Ezekiel an oracle to be given to the people living in Judah and then the next day someone arrives from Judah. Do you fail to notice that Yahweh says "say to them". The message is not to be given to those already in captivity in Mesopotamia but to those survivors in the land, "those out in the country" who would be preyed upon by wild animals or those living "in caves" (v. 27).

    Gee, what were you saying about "being faithful to what the inspired record says and not read something that is simply not there"?

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    I could imagine a number of possible WT replies (such as, disconnecting the date from the oracle and/or making the latter a fictitious prophecy to a fictitious audience, in a sort of flashback, "vision"-like setting, addressing the situation the escapee had left in Judea, hence a prophecy after the event although before the knowledge of the event); only (1) all of this may be a bit sophisticated for the WT readership, (2) potentially damaging to the fundamentalistic side of its relationship with scripture, and (3) dangerously close to the "higher critic" concept of a purely literary "prophecy". Last but not least, if "celebrated scholars" (aka. "mommy") haven't spoken on this particular issue (or, until somebody digs up what they might have said about it), how could scholar know which line of defence to choose?

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    Way to go at completely twisting the Scriptures, 'scholar'! But it's the only option you have in order to maintain your delusions.

    No it's not rocket science. It's very simple. According to biblical testimony, there were still inhabitants living in the rubble after the time you and the WTS assert the place was without inhabitant. And of course, Leolaia has completely pulverized your lame argument to the contrary.

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    Narkissos - Don't help him! Don't give him ideas! LOL.

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