Really, There Is A Lot To Learn About Your Faith

by AllTimeJeff 118 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  AllTimeJeff

  In AK - Jeffs thread "Did Jesus Ever Claim To Be The Messiah", Narkissos said the following that I think, and have learned, is rather profound:

  A better approach to this discussion might start with questioning the presupposition that there was one concept of "Messiahship" common to all or even most 1st-century AD Jews.

  The idea is, we assume that the faith and religion we have now, is as it was way back then... Clearly, it isn't.

  I haven't devoted a great deal of my time to this subject, but I have read enough to realize that there is a lot more to the history of our churches and religions then we think. JW history is pretty easy, as they started in the late 19th century. They couldn't burn their books fast enough as it turns out....

  The history of such matters in general Christianity, such as how the Bible Canon was established, who got to say what was included in the final Canon, and what was apocryphal, realizing the large varieties of Christian trains of thought from the 2nd century on, reveals a great deal about what is now accepted as "truth".

  My point is not for this to become personal at all. No attack on Christians or Christianity is implied or meant by me. However, I am just curious no matter where you stand on the atheist/theist meter, do you realize that the ways and means we got to the bible, and subsequent religions based on it, were a direct result of one prevelant theological theory defeating another equally viable theological theory in the 3-5th centuries AD?

  I have read "Misquoting Jesus" as a start, but there are other articles online which discuss this futher. I am curious if anyone is aware of this, and how that may or may not affect you?
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  OUTLAW

  ATJ..

  I`ve always been amused that from a huge amount of literature available..

  Only 25% of that information was arbitrarily chosen,to make up the Bible..

  .......................................
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  Chalam

  Hi Jeff,

  Now you are onto something and blowing more of the WT cobwebs away :)

  Yes, the historical church made mistakes and some went off on heretical red herrings but at large, the gospel is still intact.

  Matthew 16:18 (New International Version)

  18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

  That makes little sense in JW land, as according to the WT Hades did overcome the church pretty much soon after its birth and thereafter continuously for 2000 years?!

  Anyhow, have a read up, the Messiah is key. JWs have their angel Michael, the Rastafarians have Haile Selassie, plus there are a lot of other contenders List of messiah claimants

  See what Jesus has to say here Matthew 24:5 Mark 13:6 Luke 21:8

  Of course the Muslims and the Jews are still waiting, claiming that Jesus was only a prophet (contrary to His own claims).

  The call is still the same to us all Matthew 16:15 Mark 8:29 Luke 9:20

  Jesus changed the course of history but was He "God with us"? Matthew 1:23

  According to the OT, the Messiah will be a rock that causes men to stumble Isaiah 8:14

  Was that rock Jesus as the NT claims? Romans 9:33 1 Peter 2:8

  All the best,

  Stephen
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  AllTimeJeff

  Exactly. In the information age, it was inevitable that these old "gospels" would come out. Mainstream religions do have one thing in common (I would welcome correction on this if I am wrong) in that they didn't exactly give the full history on such items as the canonization of the bible and the political wars that waged, preferring instead to claim that the bible was a product of "holy spirit".

  It's interesting to me...
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  PSacramento

  You bring up a very serious issue Jeff, how one decides "which" version of Jesus to follow, or not follow at all.

  I know that, for me, if al lI had to go one was the Gospel of John and 1John, the decision woudl have been super easy !!

  LOL !

  But I didn't, I had to go through all the OT and NT AND the writings tha were not part of canon like 1Enoch, Gospel of Thomas, Gosple of Judas, etc.

  It wasn't easy but I began to get a picture of who I thought Jesus was and what his message was, but that was just ME.
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  sir82

  The idea is, we assume that the faith and religion we have now, is as it was way back then... Clearly, it isn't.

  The WT, in its illustrations in the magazines, takes this to an extreme.

  My favorites are the ones showing Paul or Peter or some othe 1st century Christian standing at a door to a house in some village, reading from a scroll, while the "householder" looks on in fascination.

  Priceless!

  Of course, the reality is that most people, including most if not all of the apostles, were illiterate ("unlettered and ordinary" meaning "not able to read"), and scrolls were prohibitively expensive - certainly not affordable for subsistence fishermen. And even if somehow affordable, you wouldn't go sauntering down the street with one tucked under your arm. And don't get me started about the idea of 1st century "housewives" sitting around with nothing better to do than answer the door when some stranger comes knocking on it!
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  sir82

  I have read "Misquoting Jesus" as a start

  Take a look at "Lost Christianities", same author (Ehrman), written a few years earlier. Another eye-opener!
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  AK - Jeff

  Interesting, PSacramento. Now for me it has had the opposite effect. I have discounted for now at least, every notion that Jesus has any significance at all in the eternal history of man. Just as I have discarded the notion that the Greek Gods were of any significance to me, or the idea that Islam was the chosen vehicle of godliness to the world.

  I am relatively positive, for instance, that had I been born in Turkey or Egypt, my conception of 'salvation' would have been far different. My investigation would have been directed toward the Koran likely, to either accept or reject it. If I was born in China, I would likely fall into the wide acceptance of ideology there, and would likely have never investigated the Bible or the rejected Gnostic writings as my source. They would have never come to mind in finding my faith.

  Born in a 'Christian' culture makes it easy to adopt Christian perspective without a lot of serious investigation. It is easy to find 'mentors' who will support your direction as example.

  Jeff
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  AllTimeJeff

  One problem religions in general have is their vested interest in their own theology. They aren't really too keen on showing items, however true they are, that would douse the fire of one's potential faith.

  Which makes such faith rather flimsy if it can't stand up to such review and research.

  I am relatively positive, for instance, that had I been born in Turkey or Egypt, my conception of 'salvation' would have been far different. My investigation would have been directed toward the Koran likely, to either accept or reject it. If I was born in China, I would likely fall into the wide acceptance of ideology there, and would likely have never investigated the Bible or the rejected Gnostic writings as my source. They would have never come to mind in finding my faith.

  Born in a 'Christian' culture makes it easy to adopt Christian perspective without a lot of serious investigation. It is easy to find 'mentors' who will support your direction as example.

  I tend to agree with this. To me, this makes the value of any stated religion more cultural then spiritual.
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  snowbird

  Of course, the reality is that most people, including most if not all of the apostles, were illiterate ("unlettered and ordinary" meaning "not able to read"),

  Google Acts 4:13 and you will find the consensus among scholars is this meant Peter and John, far from being illiterate, only had an elementary education.

  Sylvia