What are the “fruits” that we are supposed to recognize?

by bluecanary 28 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  bluecanary

  I posted most of this on another thread but I want this to stand alone so I can refer back to it in the future. One of our resident apologists has given her response on this thread. You can judge the relative worth of her response for yourself.

  "By their fruit you will recognize them." Matthew 7:16

  What are the fruits we are supposed to recognize? Jesus gave these indications:

  "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind."' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"-Matthew 22:37-39

  "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."-John 13:35

  The most important identifying factors for "true" religion hinge on how persons follow these commands. Individual "imperfection" is irrelevant. Choice in doctrines is secondary, to be considered only after first determining whether the religion follows the law of love.

  If doctrine was the important identifying feature of Christ's disciples he would have said something like: "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you understand my place in God's organization, eschew holiday celebrations and if you understand correctly what happens to you when you die."

  If Jesus was applying that scripture to individuals, it must be applied across the board to individuals in any religion that are personally characterized by the love they show. Or did Jesus mean that we would recognize an organization as being his disciples? The WTS claims the latter. In which case, the scripture must be applied to the organization as a whole.

  Most of us here have discovered that the organization as a whole is characterized not by love, but a lack of love. We are not just talking about a handful of individuals who can be petty or cruel, though there is plenty of that. We are talking organizational policies and doctrines carried out on a massive scale that are unloving and unChristlike. We are talking about policies that have caused the torture, rape and deaths of countless innocents, all at the instigation of the WTS.

  Some JWs make the assertion of the WTS that "they never cause us harm." That is patently untrue. Take the incident of what happened to the rank and file in Malawi as just one example of the grave harm this organization is responsible for. Take into account the harmful effects of banning organ transplants, blood transfusions and alternative service. See this site for more information.

  Witnesses may claim that the policies mentioned above were there to protect us, but consider this: every one of those policies has been changed. Jehovah may be able to resurrect the many that died as a result of these wrong policies, but does he not hold accountable those who cause the deaths of innocent ones? The organization who incorrectly forced millions to adhere to these unscriptural policies through threat of disfellowshipping is blood guilty.

  If Jesus meant that love would be the identifying mark of an organization, the WTS has proven beyond doubt that they are NOT it. If this is just stuff that Jehovah intends to fix within the organization some time in the future, of what good is the measurement Jesus gave us (love) for identifying the true religion in the meantime?

  If an organization is not characterized by love, as Jesus said they MUST be, it doesn't matter how many other doctrines they get right. Which is more demonstrative of your love for God: conformance to a particular belief of what happens to your soul when you die or loving your neighbor enough to allow him a blood transfusion as a lifesaving treatment? Understanding the exact level of Jesus' divinity or showing love to your fellow by not shunning him when he has questions or doubts? Avoiding a celebration that has past ties to a pagan ritual or making it a priority to protect the children in your midst from abuse?

  If the information I posted is incorrect or my reasoning faulty, by all means, point out the particular fallacies. And if you cannot defend this organization against charges of blood guilt and organizational lack of love, then why on earth are you promoting them?
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  oompa

  i recognize everything from a couple of nice firm peaches all the way up to a couple of nice lush melons...........even when i was a dub i always saw these and reconized them............oompa
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  JosephMalik

  "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."-John 13:35 The most important identifying factors for "true" religion hinge on how persons follow these commands. Individual "imperfection" is irrelevant. Choice in doctrines is secondary, to be considered only after first determining whether the religion follows the law of love.

  Bluecanary,

  Not according to our Lord. Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Or his Apostle Paul: Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. 10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake. 12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

  We do not learn everything we need to know in one verse. And nowhere do we learn that doctrines are secondary to a law of love. Such things taken together from all the sources available to us are requirements for the faith. John who for a time was a party to the apostasy of keeping the Law and circucision that existed in Jerusalem and one that nearly had the Apostle Paul killed had through personal experience a good reason to make this point regarding love. It could have prevented that bad experience to a man an Apostle teaching the truth to them. And looking up words like truth, doctrine, teaching(s) antichrist, man of lawlessness bring all this out. Furthermore I do not attempt to presume what Jesus would have said to satisfy my opinions on such things so I will not bother with that statement. It is only required for us to observe the things that he did say and what he instructed his Apostles to later reveal.

  Joseph
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  bluecanary

  Joseph, it was not my intention to imply that doctrine is unimportant and perhaps I could have chosen better words. My point was that if an organization teaches correct doctrine but is not also characterized by love, than that organization cannot be identified as Jesus disciples, as per John 13:35. You may not think that this scripture carries that kind of weight, but the WTS sure does. My post is an intent to prove that by their own standards, they cannot be the true religion.
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  JosephMalik

  Bluecanary,

  Since the WTS does not teach correct doctrine, I prefer to focus on it. They will disfellowship anyone that questions them since their attitude is like Diotrophes in the first century. 3John 9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church. 11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God. The WTS is evil through and through and not just on this matter of love.

  Joseph
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  bluecanary

  Since the WTS does not teach correct doctrine, I prefer to focus on it.

  I think that's important, too. I just wanted to focus on it from a different angle, here. We've got them surrounded from all sides, Joseph.
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  palmtree67

  Good one, blue. I've been thinking alot about this subject lately.

  The fruitage of the holy spirit is love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, mildness, self-control and faith. (I think I'm missing one....)

  So an organization that claims to be directed by holy spirit should have ALL of these qualities. Do I see love (in general) practiced there? Are the people truly joyful? Do the organization's practices reflect mildness and kindness?

  I don't expect perfection, so when a mistake is made do they admit it and fix the problem?

  That is what I am looking for now. I will base any religion on that scripture in Galatians 6.
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  WTWizard

  These fruits:

  Turning in a field circus slip every month. If the hounders do not like the numbers on that slip, they will hound you about it.

  Being hounded to give up everything that could set you apart from everyone else.

  Tiredness, all the time (while still doing the work).

  Protection of pedophiles and silencing the victims within the ranks.

  Widespread hypocrisy, gossip, slander, and even outright lying to householders and then holding them to decisions based on those lies.
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  AllTimeJeff

  To my way of thinking, proper doctrine will result in fruitage that refreshes all of its members instead of the opposite.

  My focus in my essays and blogs has been a similar approach to Jospeh Malik, because doctrine, dogma and "prophecy" (JW style) is the main focus of this Old Testament cult. Because JW's make such a big deal about everyone else's doctrine, it is easiest to expose JW's through this method.

  I really like this essay bluecanary, because for all the lip service that JW's pay to Jesus, it is clear that the fruitage the gospels say to look for as to being Christian does not belong to JW's.

  Nothing that you wrote here is incorrect. JW's conveniently try to disect and dillute love into the 4 greek words found for it. eros, philia, storge, and agape. It is agape love that they try to "disinfect" from emotion, by trying to frame it as a love of principle and what is right. Others have written how limiting this definition that the GB insists on for agape is.

  I think it a weakness, failure, whatever you want to call it, of all organized religions that there is a breaking point to them, in that they typically have a couple of "calling cards" that are all about them. Jesus it seemed, was all about you. He condemned the religious leaders who put tradition and their own laws ahead of the people, compassion, and simple common sense.

  To the extent that a Christian religion allows people to be themselves, and teaches its flock how to be better people, then it has a better chance in the future of at least getting my attention. However, I still believe that these spiritual matters are best left to the individual, independent of having to embrace a full force dogma in a particular religion. I view Jesus' words as a helpful guide for me personally, and much of what he said actually is rather damning of many/most religions today.
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  JosephMalik

  AllTimeJeff,

  Yes indeed. It is precisely because of their doctrine that they are suffering and dying refusing blood among other things while pretending to show love to one another. It was for good reason that Paul said: 1Co 3:4 For when one says, "I belong to Paul," and another, "I belong to [the Watchtower? oops] Apollos," are you not merely men? 5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, [including the Watchtower] but only God who gives the growth. . . . 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. And they have all denied Christ by their doctrine including those partakers that claim to be anointed and they seem proud in doing it as witnesses or observers. Mt 10:33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. Pitiful people with pitiful doctrines.

  Joseph