Governing Body's excuse - "the apostles made mistakes too"

by xelder 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  homeschool

  bttt
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  xelder

  thanks for your comments - they are truly appreciated.

  Narkissos - I'm very sorry if my question was prejudiced. It really wan't intended to be. But thanks for pointing that out.

  thanks again to all
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  Narkissos

  Hi xelder,

  That's not what I meant -- at all! :)

  I felt the question as you put it was almost rhetorical (and there's nothing wrong in a rhetorical question), not prejudiced: of course "the apostles" in Acts are not portrayed as flip-flopping the way the WT GB has done. I only wanted to point out that the very idea of them working as a collective, central authority over the worldwide church is a very artificial one which covers a much more complex historical reality -- and that reality does include considerable doctrinal variation, although not from any "central" "governing" source.

  Welcome!
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  JosephMalik

  What is actually lacking is the evidence for any constituted group of "apostles" beint acknowledged as a collective overarching authority by all of them

  Narkissos,

  But we do see something even worse. We see them usurping the authority of Christ, even using scriptures to make it all sound legal and valid. And this was done by all of them or at least the 11 now left trying to keep their number at 12 to satisfy scripture. Acts 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. 26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. This appointment was not valid as no-one can make such an appointment for Christ even if they appealed to him in prayer. Our Lord had rules and revealed this rule when he said: Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. They even failed to ask the Father in this case and their fruit did not remain. Such statements made to them had limits and this was one of them. Christ had to correct all this later by going outside of his own following to find someone who would not keep the Law like they were still doing and one that was acceptable for this position. Ac 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: It required such a personal appointment to be valid in the faith. Now it is also true that they could appoint all the Apostles they wanted to represent themselves to perform whatever duty they needed. But they could not appoint an Apostle for someone else like Christ in this case to represent Christ in this official capacity. Our Lord had to come back in his special way to appoint Paul personally to satisfy this biblical requirement. And Paul had to go to great lengths to prove this very point by saying: 1Co 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. What may be viewed as an error here was actually Paul keeping the number at twelve throughout since he was now including himself in this unchangeable scriptural value, twelve serving to depict all of them chosen by Christ personally.

  Joseph
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  heathen

  Some interesting points being made here but it really is the FDS dogma that they cling to for authority .The apostles did make mistakes and the bible does contradict itself . Paul was clearly the most adamant about being free from the mosaic law claiming it was obsolete and passing away , cursed is the one hung upon a stake ,( of course jesus being the emodiment of the law) and the one believed to have given it to moses as the word of God. The 10 commandments jesus summed up as to do unto others as you would have others do unto you . Jesus initiated a new covenant at the last supper , to cling to the past was not part of the plan as when he said you cannot put new wine in old wine skins .
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  JosephMalik

  Well you know something? We have the Bible, and we have Christ. What else do we need? Well we have each other and that's nice. The one thing that we do not need is someone else ruling our lives and making decisions for us. We can stand on our own two feet, share our knowledge and experiences and decide what the truth is for ourselves and where it is taking us. Our Lord was patient, worked with His apostles and did not jump on them when they failed Him. He even gave Judas many chances, warning him and not judging him but tried to get him to change his mind and repent. We have all these examples, years and years of them in scripture to see how it was done. It is all a lesson for us and we are the beneficiaries of it. Chose Christ over organization and live. As Paul stated: Ro 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

  Joseph
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  glenster

  One of the apostles betrayed him for gold, too, although non-apostles could do it, too.
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  heathen

  We have this forum to throw around some thoughts on , judas was destined to do what he did, at least it isn't us .LOL I know it's hard to adhere to religion as I have tried in the past , christianity is a way of life not just a belief or a religion , I do believe that all religion has fallen short of divine standards and all people as well , even the apostle Peter proved himself a hypocrite , the bible itself has been bastardized by world rulers and charlatans . All you can do is strive to be the best you can .
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  Chalam

  I agree with Outlaw

  None of the Apostles claimed to be mediator between man and God..

  Thats Jesus`s job..

  The WBT$ claims to be mediator for everyone,except the 144,000..

  Jesus is out of a Job..

  The WT are actually standing "in the place of" Christ or as many bibles translate "anti Christ". This is quite subtle as they don't want to be blatant or the game is up.

  However, check out their words carefully, the clues are there Matthew 12:34 Luke 6:45

  All the best,

  Stephen
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  OnTheWayOut

  If God did choose the imperfect men as his faithful and discreet slave, they would have to be discreet and wait until they got it right on any doctrine they spout. Certainly, they haven't done that, in an eagerness for the end to arrive, they have made a bunch of doctrinal flips. That doesn't compare well with their own version of the GB of the first century.