by Chalam 30 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Sad emo
Nope, the Father isn't Jesus
You should read my thread again. That was not my claim, but that they are one God and Jesus has the name of the Father.
I certainly do not believe in Modalism. Jesus did not pray to Himself but to the Father. The Holy Spirit likewise prays not to Himself but Jesus and the Father.
All the best,
Stephen
DD
I'm a trinitarian, but, I think you're streching it a little
Obviously these translators do not, they all say the same thing, the Father gave His name to Jesus.
| NIV© | I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one. |
| NAS© | "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. |
| ISV© | I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by your name, the name that you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one. |
| GWT© | I won't be in the world much longer, but they are in the world, and I'm coming back to you. Holy Father, keep them safe by the power of your name, the name that you gave me, so that their unity may be like ours. |
| KJV | And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. |
| AKJ | And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to you. Holy Father, keep through your own name those whom you have given me, that they may be one, as we are. |
| ASV | And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are . |
| BBE | And now I will be no longer in the world, but they are in the world and I come to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name which you have given to me, so that they may be one even as we are one. |
| DRB | And now I am not in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou has given me; that they may be one, as we also are. |
| DBY | And I am no longer in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one as we. |
| ERV | And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are. |
| WBS | And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thy own name those whom thou hast given to me, that they may be one, as we are. |
| WEY | I am now no longer in the world, but they are in the world and I am coming to Thee. "Holy Father, keep them true to Thy name--the name which Thou hast given me to bear--that they may be one, even as we are. |
| WEB | I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them through your name which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are. |
and no more am I in the world, and these are in the world, and I come unto Thee. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, whom Thou hast given to me, that they may be one as we; |
Once again, what is the name of the Father which was given to Jesus?
Word Origin from Yhvh and yasha Definition "the LORD is salvation"
Jesus' name is literally "Yahweh saves" i.e. His name is that of the Father.
Want some "chapter and verse" for that?
20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, [ a ] because he will save his people from their sins."
22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" [ b ] —which means, "God with us."
Footnotes:
All the best,
Stephen
pjschipper
Calling the Christ father is correct. Because through his death he gave us who make use of it life, that makes him a father, and to those receiving everlasting life, eternal father. However because of general using Christ as father, can confuse those who are not bibilical scholor's, don't say that without an explanation! Matthew 23:9 b "You have only one Father, and he is in heaven."
Of course I have no problem with Matthew 23:9 because I believe Jesus is God and that He and the Father are one (God).
A JW has problems with this verse as they believe they are God and "a god".
All the best,
Stephen
There are two completely distinct problems here:
The first one is textual. The best attested reading by far has the relative hô, dative, which is sometimes corrected (from a syntaxical standpoint) with the neuter accusative ho: both refer back to the name (onoma, neuter) of the Father. But a few witnesses read the masculine plural accusative hous, which refers back to the disciples as given by the Father to the Son (a distinct idea which is expressed in v. 6 and 18:9). The vast majority of textual critics consider the first reading original, and the latter a secondary modification.
The second problem is interpretive. If we agree with most textual critics (as I do) that the Father own "name" was indeed given to the Son, what is meant by that? There is certainly more to it than just the common name "Jesus". Possible echoes of this idea can be found with the theme of the secret name -- shared by the Father, the Son, and the elect -- in Revelation (2:17; 3:12; 14:1; 19:12; 22:4)
I certainly do not believe in Modalism.
Good to hear, Chalam!
But I think I agree with the Deputy on this one - you're trying to stretch the connection a bit far.
Perhaps, a very brief explanation might help clarify the passage in your opening post (narkissos would be able to expand on this better than me!).
In Jewish culture, the family name (ie the surname) gave some indication of the attributes of that family eg honourable, truthful etc. To have the family name, one was expected to continue in the reputation. So, what Jesus was saying is that as the Son of God (Jeshua ben 'God the Father' if you like), he had been given all the attributes of 'God the Father'
In John 17:6, Jesus, praying to the Father says "I have made you (some translations read 'your Name') known" - in this context, Jesus is saying that he has displayed/revealed all the attributes of the Father, not that he has told the disciples the Father's actual name (which is why 'Jehovah' isn't mentioned much in the NT!)
What are the attributes of God then? The primary one is love...
Chalam
Obviously these translators do not, they all say the same thing, the Father gave His name to Jesus.
You need to reread some of them.
The prayer is about his perfectly keeping those whom the father gave him.
| KJV | And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. |
| AKJ | And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to you. Holy Father, keep through your own name those whom you have given me, that they may be one, as we are. |
| ASV | And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are . |
| DRB | And now I am not in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou has given me; that they may be one, as we also are. |
| WBS | And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thy own name those whom thou hast given to me, that they may be one, as we are. |
| YLT | and no more am I in the world, and these are in the world, and I come unto Thee. Holy Father,keep them in Thy name, whom Thou hast given to me, that they may be one as we; |
Just for the sake of clarity: the versions Chalam and DD quote do not translate the same Greek text.
Other than the bible, can anyone show me compelling evidence that Jesus Christ ever existed? I can prove that he didn't, so over to you Christians.
Show the proof.
Isaiah 9:6 of the NWT states that "a child born to us" (Jesus) will be called "Eternal Father." Christ was, and is, the Father, and eternal. That was, and is, one of his names.
"For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be on his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."
JD II
