Resurrection or re-creation?

by teel 45 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    interesting information as always Leo.

    The Watchtower concept of resurrection is a clone that will have the same genetic makeup and rebuilt with the same memory ( I cannot help but keep thinking this makes us little more than a computer). So we die, and later we are re-created/cloned.

    To understand the flaw in this logic, imagine it the other way around. God resurrects us while we are still alive ... to replace us. If God was to say, "This is the resurrected you - so now it is time for you to die", would you be content to die because you were to continue in the resurrected form? I doubt people would be satisfied with that scenario. Yet that is the Watchtower resurrection, baring a small difference in timing.

  • teel
    teel

    This thread shows me that God as the Watchtower depicts him is by far not the loving, giving one the Bible shows us, but an egomaniac, selfish one. He asks of us to reach a certain state of mind in our life that can be used as a basis for creating a society of drones that worship him. Then when we die, he recreates that mind again, because it had the right qualities to fit in his plan. Of course your sins are forgotten, because it's not you any more! This whole thing sounds more like Satan, not like God.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    There is no doubt to me that the WT compound of annihilation and re-creation is alien to both the late Jewish and early Christian views of post-mortem existence and/or resurrection. You can find belief in soul/spirit survival and bodily resurrection (Pharisees and probably Essenes), soul/spirit survival alone (some strands of Hellenistic Judaism, e.g. Wisdom of Solomon), or neither (Sadducees, an early form of which is probably attested in Ecclesiastes). But bodily resurrection without any form of soul/spirit survival doesn't make any sense from this perspective, and is not attested historically either.

    It should be noted, though, that one early function of the resurrection belief in Judaism (which still made bodily resurrection necessary in addition to soul survival, even when the latter already includes "intermediate-state" reward and punishment as in Pharisaic and other popular views, cf. the Lukan story of Lazarus and the rich man) is objective rather than subjective. It has to do with final judgement as a cosmic event with an implicit audience, where the righteous have to be objectively vindicated and shown righteous, and the wicked objectively condemned and shown wicked. Once that "objective," demonstrative aspect of resurrection (which never quite made sense in Greek thinking) is lost along with the cosmical and eschatological perspective more generally, the meaning of, and need for bodily resurrection in addition to reward/punishment right after death tend to vanish. Although "resurrection of the flesh in the last day" remains in the creeds, it makes little sense to the average believer.

    This objective function is quite evident in one of the earliest emergence of the belief, Daniel 12:2f: "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever." Both the notions of "shame and contempt" and "shining like the stars" have an objective aspect: a universal "show" to an untold audience. Because the representation of the intermediate state is still minimal at this point ("sleeping in the dust," "rest" v. 13) it combines with a subjective function ("eternal life," "your lot" or "reward," v. 13). But as soon as the subjective reward and punishment are anticipated within the intermediate state (with the notions of "paradise" or "Abraham's bosom" vs. fiery Hades in Luke, for instance), the function of final resurrection is mostly objective.

    And to that function (which, ironically, is lost in WT theology since resurrection is disconnected from the notion of judgement for past actions) a "copy" or "double" might make some sense. Just as actions and/or names written on books (cf. Revelation 20) do. Even the idea of a "double" existing simultaneously with a human person on another (heavenly) scene is not remote from "apocalyptical" thinking (a number of characters could be construed as existing on both levels, e.g. Adam, Henoch, Melchizedeq, Elijah). The NT concept of people's angels (Matthew 18:10; Acts 12:15) might echo a similar view.

    How this can relate to modern "self"-understandings is another matter altogether. Clearly all kinds of eschatologies (even the hybrid WT form) work for some. Not for all (did any ever work for all?). J.P. Melville's line in Godard's movie A bout de souffle comes to mind; asked about his ultimate wish his character replies: "To become immortal. And then, to die."

  • kurtbethel
    kurtbethel

    There are some commentaries about the original 1978 Battlestar Galactica being based on Mormon theology.

    The newer series of the last 5 years apparently has a strong religious theme, including a type of resurrection that is based on JW beliefs on that topic.

    As an added bonus, a recurring musical theme features the song, All Along the Watchtower.

  • cantleave
    cantleave

    I have always had a problem with this. Also all bad memories will be erased, but don't the bad memories have an impact on the development of who we are? Do we not learn from them? Another aspect is sexual desire after resurrection / recreation. Are the recreated ones going to have sexual desires? Are those who spouses in the old system remarried after there husband / wife died going to forget their previous marriages. Or will there still be strong feelings? If those feelings are removed what is left? To be honest I would rather be reincarnated.

  • moshe
    moshe

    I believe that Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle pretty much rules any earthly recreation/resurrection by a supreme creator. Don't ask me for an explantion.

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