understand where you say attacking the messenger not the message, but looking at the message first; well really they go hand in hand, doctrinally the message is without any shadow of doubt 100% wrong from the early days of Russel up to the present day,the message has been chopped and changed, back wards and forwards, and the most recent changes of the "generation" clearly show the this Faithful and Discreet Slave Class is most definitely not chosen by the Lord, even if they have 1 single doctrine/prophecy wrong , Duet 18,20-22 clearly sums them up, and destruction is the only punishment for their lies, as regards the "messenger" they hold scandal's and skeleton's in the closet far worse than any of the so called churches of christendom
Does anyone think that maybe we're just wrong?
by paul from cleveland 143 Replies latest jw friends
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The Almighty Homer
How can anyone honestly after seeing the profound ignorance and corruption of this organization say " Gee I think I made a mistake " ?
The WTS was a big mistake and always will be. A publishing company that disguises itself as a religion cant be be good for anyone.
Well maybe for those special kings that rule over this kingdom.
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jwfacts
One thing I came to realise is that the only reason I was afraid of Armageddon was because I was raised a JW. If I was raised a Catholic I would be afraid of Hell. If I was raised a Mormon it would be a different punishment, and as a Hindu yet another religiously inspired fear.
The only reason you fear the Watchtower definition of Armageddon is because at one stage you had been convinced that being a JW was the truth. This is a thought pattern you have not yet cleared from your mind. Once you recognise the importance of that concept it will be a lot easier to overcome.
I now do not have even to smallest fear of Armageddon, or even a miniscule inkling that what the Watchtower teaches is truth. But it took a lot of research and understanding of how the mind works and cults manipulate thoughts to get to that stage.
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jamiebowers
Please look for my pm to you, and also read this:
http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studymindctr/study_mindctr_lifton.htm
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paul from cleveland
Thank you for all your comments!
It’s really a pleasure to have some contact with people who know what I’m talking about. I will read those books recommended.
It’s true that I’m being motivated by fear… Often I wish that I had never heard of Jehovah’s Witnesses. But the fact is that I have heard. Sometimes the fear is like a black hole that consumes me.
I have to admit that to me Jehovah’s Witnesses are an enigma. For every argument against them, I can think of a logical explanation that refutes it (to me anyway). For example, the NGO/pedophile problems… the nation of Israel (back in the day) did things that were many times worse than anything the Witnesses have done, yet God still used them as his organization (until his purpose for them was complete). Regarding the 1914 generation revision, the apostles themselves had mistaken expectations regarding Jesus’ return. But at least they’re ‘keeping on the watch’ so to speak. Plus, you have to admit the organization has done some pretty amazing things… they really are preaching the ‘news about the kingdom in all the inhabited earth’.
I’m not a Jehovah’s Witness apologist. I don’t want to go back to the organization. The idea of ‘jumping through all those hoops’ again… I don’t want to do it. But, if we’re really living in a time that parallels the days of Noah, maybe we’re supposed to be afraid.
Like I said… I’m torn.
Paul
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TD
Hi Paul,
You've given (probably rhetorically) some reasons the JW organization itself has come up with to excuse itself. I've answered below, not to be argumentative, but to show that each of the reasons is entirely dependent upon presuppositions that are either overtly untrue or questionable at best.
....the nation of Israel (back in the day) did things that were many times worse than anything the Witnesses have done, yet God still used them as his organization (until his purpose for them was complete).
True, but the nation of Israel were God's people, organization etc. because of a promise made to Abraham. Regardless of how bad they acted, they continued to be God's people/organization until that promise was fulfilled. God can't break his promises.
The JW claim of being God's people, organization etc. is not based on a hereditary promise; it is based on conduct. Jehovah allegedly chose them because of what they did and taught. Therefore bad conduct cannot be dismissed using the nation of Israel as an example because unlike Israel, good conduct is the very root of the claim.
Regarding the 1914 generation revision, the apostles themselves had mistaken expectations regarding Jesus’ return. But at least they’re ‘keeping on the watch’ so to speak.
Again, true. But did the apostles force others on pain of expulsion from the congregation to agree with their mistaken expectations? Did the apostles voice these mistaken expectations under the auspices of spirit direction?
Anyone can have mistaken expectations. That in and of itself is not the sin. The sin is claiming that Jehovah himself is the author of those mistaken expectations.
…. they really are preaching the ‘news about the kingdom in all the inhabited earth’.
The "Good news of the kingdom" as taught by Jehovah's Witnesses is that Christ returned invisibly in 1914; assumed kingly power; invisibly cancelled the nations "lease" over the earth; chose the Bible Students as the faithful and wise servant and appointed them over all his belongings; and shortly will extend his kingdom rule to earth. This is affirmed over and over in JW literature.
The preaching of JW's means little if this message is inaccurate. It is certainly so far beyond the simple message described at Romans 1:16 that most Christians find it entirely baffling.
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jaguarbass
As far as I remember they prophecied Armegedon was going to come in 75.
It didnt. You should stone them.
They are false prophets, If they tell you they are not. They are lying.
I understand your fears.
It would be nice if somebody had the answers to the big questions and meaning of life.
But no one does.
We are probably designed to be ignorant.
Which to me means we are probably some kind of worker slave unit.
Being exploited. Like cattle and pigs.
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AGuest
the nation of Israel were God's people, organization etc. because of a promise made to Abraham. Regardless of how bad they acted, they continued
to be God's people/organization until that promise was fulfilled.
Actually, they continue to be God's people even down to this day because the promise has not yet been fulfilled (so, we are still obligated to "do good" to even the "least" one of them, as Christ's brothers). While the temple, with its Ark [of the Covenant]... the visible representation of God's presence with the nation of Israel, was rejected entotale, the people have only been rejected in part... and temporarily. Matthew 24:39
God has made provision for Abraham's seed, however, first by ensuring 144,000 kingly/priestly slots in His kingdom, after which the great crowd (which consists of peoples of the nations AND Israel: "all nations, tribes...") are brought in to fill the remaining slots of that kingship/priesthood. Once the kingship/priesthood is complete, however, the rest of ALL Israel are brought in. Romans 11:25-31
God will not renege on His promise to Abraham. The ONLY thing that changed is that rather than the entire nation being guaranteed to rule with Christ, as a result of their rejection of the appointed "head" of God's kingdom, only 144,000 of that nation are actually guaranteed (i.e., "sealed"), which fulfills the promise. The rest of those who make up God's "holy nation" come out of EVERY nation, tribe, etc. Revelation 7:4, 9
I bid you all peace!
A slave of Chirst
SA
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diamondiiz
TD said it correctly regards to comparing Israel and wts. Once Israel lost it's favor with God, the religious system ended. There were congregations in the first century but it doesn't appear that they had a house of scribes who made their fellow brothers push their interpretations upon the public. WTS can't prove that there was a line of teachers from first century untill 1879 that carried same message as wts. There is no proof that God had an active organization between nation of Israel and wts so what makes one think that wts is It? WTS originated with flaws which were not corrected in 1919 so how could they have been chosen to be God's channel? Did anyone tell them that they were chosen? I think not. I can say that I'm the chosen one come and follow me - but where's the proof? Hopefully you wouldn't do it today if a stranger said it to you but that's exactly what strangers from Brooklyn are saying and 7million people are following them without questioning that. Those of us who did question are not there anymore. Russell taught 1874 as Christ's return and that was taught until official change in 1943 - some 2 decades after so called appointing of the servent. Did God choose those who pushed 1925 as more legit date than 1914 and had a leader live in a mansion? Would Jesus view a drunken man claiming to be a judge living in a mansion driving a Cadillac a chosen vessel and a best thing that would represent his interests on earth? Think about it. WTS was decietful from the start and it continued on. It wasn't if they were humble at one point and went bad, it wasn't if they had anything promised to them other than what they made up. There was no sign, nor was there an angel sent to say that this was God's chosen organization. Israel is said to have had many prophets and many signs, wts had none.
1914 is not only one date they forced on their so called brothers! 1878 probably would be considered the first as they expected to go to heaven in that year and in 1881 after that. 1914 was just one of many dates taught by Russell but out of all the different dates 1914 was to be the start of great tribulation and Armageddon and that is why when WWI started Russell thought the end has arrived and it was imminent.
Their preaching is in vein when they are decieving people! They're teaching something that Christ never did. Where do you see in the bible Christ teach that people won't die but live on paradise earth? He didn't point to a date and even though some of his disciples thought he was about to establish a kingdom at that time I don't remember seeing them teaching that message to the masses. I don't remember early church disfellowshipping anyone who questioned the older men in Jerusalem - Paul wasn't one of the 12 and he questioned Peter on circumsission, in fact Paul rebuked Peter. Can you imagine going to Brooklyn and seeing one of the GB and telling them they're flat out wrong about 1914? No one doubts for a second that they would let you talk to any of them and for them to allow themselved to be rebuked is unthinkable! You would have been either given a choice of "you follow us" or "there is the door". This org has many good things but the bad things are serious enough to kill one's spirituality. I will use their own illustration here, if you were thirsty and someone offered you a glass of cold water with just a small amount of poison in it - would you drink it hoping that the poison won't kill you? That is wts appearing to be holy but disgusting on the inside.
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BabaYaga
Welcome, Paul!
You're in the right place. Keep reading.
Love,
Baba.