by smiddy 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
As for Enoch, we know that he never went to a place called heaven. Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Seems like the Son of Man did ascend up to heaven before he came down. Which is precisely what Enoch (whom 1 Enoch identifies once as the Son of Man) did...
Narkissos,
The Son of Man did ascend up to heaven, and only the Son of Man did at the time John wrote. That is what John is saying. He is not saying that the Son of Man ascended up to heaven as the Son of Man before becoming flesh. The Word perhaps but not the Son of Man. Furthermore we do not see any texts that teach that some of us ever will ascend to heaven the way Jesus did. After all we are not qualified to do that the way Jesus was when He said: Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. What we do know is that Christ will return as a human once again to raise the dead and administer his kingdom. Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. And: Matt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Joseph
JosephMalik.....I wasn't talking about what really happened to Enoch (supposing his existence of course), and whatever John says doesn't erase the fact that first-century Jewish apolcayptic included ideas about the Son of Man (an eschatological character in Jewish as well as Christian apocalyptic), bodily ascents to heaven, and the clothing motifs I mentioned in my last post. I mentioned them because the clothing metaphor is one fairly widespread way of talking about the issue of embodiment in relation to earthly and heavenly beings.
Strictly, No one has ascended(anabebèken, perfect = past tense) into heaven except(ei mè)... implies that the "exception" has already ascended to heaven...
Now it is exegetically debatable whether the sentence has to be read that strictly. It is nonetheless striking that the whole tradition of the "Son of Man in heaven" can be traced back to the story of a man who did ascend to heaven (Enoch). It is all the more striking if you include the variant reading "the Son of Man who is in heaven" (your quote), and when you consider the specific parallels of the Son of Man in GJohn and 1 Enoch. For instance, 5:27: "he has given him authority to execute judgment, because (hoti)he is the Son of Man." How does Jesus' being the Son of Man justifies judgement being entrusted to him? Without the Enochian background this is less than clear. Now see 1 Henoch 69:26f: "They blessed, glorified, and exalted, because the name of the Son of man was revealed to them. He sat upon the throne of his glory; and the principal part (or sum) of the judgment was assigned to him, the Son of man. Sinners shall disappear and perish from the face of the earth, while those who seduced them shall be bound with chains for ever."
Wow, you guys are really taking this seriously? No shortage of crazy I suppose.
Smiddy - it doesn't make sense for good reason. None of the bible does. It's all a bunch of self contradicting nonsense written by men.
"Wow, you guys are really taking this seriously? "
Oh, is this a continuation of the batman and robin thread? Somebody should do some youtubes of those materialisations w batman and robin vanquishing them and dropping them into tartarus.
S
Narkissos,
Heaven in its base meaning simply means the sky above our heads. 1) heaven, heavens, sky 1a) visible heavens, sky Ge 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. Humans now go there all the time when they travel in Aircraft or spacecraft. Enoch is thought to have gone there according to scripture somehow and Christ went there visibly as well and will return from there somehow. The rest is speculation as to what the word heaven means or what became of them in the process or afterwards. Is it the abode of God literally or figuratively. Context is the key we often miss. Heaven also means other things like God himself or God approved actions depicting authority that is offered to us by God and human assumptions carry the tale from there. We also find such grand words as you show that are are put forth to make an argument that humanity cannot see or understand. Some of it is the product of our imagination. Some of it was penned to uplift our mind and strengthen our hope in the future of mankind. Jewish use of the word seldom resembled our present day use of it. Enoch's background, someone that had no prior existence other than human, adds no clarity to what our Lord did at his ascension other that this: Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Nothing, zip.
Leolaia,
Thanks for the clarity. The clothing be it a metaphor or not did play a part in the events that took place and one could conceal their identity with it but heavenly things are not what many perceive today. The word heaven and its use is poorly understood. As to what happened to Jesus during his ascension literally after He passed from sight we only know that his humanity was not lost to us, he could still be identified as a man even with the glory he now had restored to Him and at His coming the humanity he still has will also be restored to us once again in His Kingdom.
Joseph
Read the Slave Species of God by Michael Tillinger based on the works of Zecariah Sitchin.
It will give you a whole knew understanding.
