Will we ever find the magic bullet.

by sleepy 15 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  sleepy

  Lets just face it humans are odd.
  Nearly all here are proof of it.
  We were able at one time to believe so fully in an idea that we gave our lives to it , and now we don’t.
  Although this subject has been discussed many times before It is something that frustrates me , big time.

  Well we all at one time thought we knew it all. The meaning of life the real history of human kind why we die why there is suffering and many more of life’s mysteries were plain and simple to us.
  Gradually came the realisation that things were not as we had thought.
  What was once so obvious was now so obviously wrong.
  So how do humans manage to believe fervently on issues that to others make no sense?
  Is there a “magic” explanation or piece of logic that can convince any witness with a functioning mind the error of their beliefs?
  You can bring up 607, false prophecy, paedophiles, UN , validity of the Bible , evolution and science.
  Yet no matter how good you are at reasoning on these subjects you will not convince all of the truth.
  In fact you may not convince one.
  Why?

  Well are people who have never been JW’s any better at reasoning , for seeing the world as it truly is?
  I would say no .Each person has his own world view , his own beliefs.
  Some may believe evolution caused life on earth , but only because they are taught it. They may have no better understanding of the matter than the average witness. But they see scientists as an authority.
  Some believe in magic others in holy books. People have differing political views and moralistic standards. But all have a sort of belief system.
  In order to be able to function as a human we must form a world view through which we interpret events.
  Human need to be able to make sense of the world and to do so we must draw conclusions about how the world functions to enable us to label things ,categorise them and tuck them neatly into or life.
  To jump from one world view to another usually requires the separating of more than one fact or opinion from its previous label or understanding.
  A person will often need to see several of his beliefs are in error before he decides to re-align his world view, and have his paradigm shifted.
  Unless a profound and major piece of evidence arises in which case the change will often be a shock to the system.
  So is there the magic bullet that will enable us to shoot down the beliefs of the witnesses ?Will some one come up with such an outdstandingly reasonable aurgument against Jehovahs witnesses being right ,that all but the insane will have to recant?
  Or do we have to keep on always chipping away with little bits of evidence until we break through?
  How did it work for you?

  I just wish there was an easy way to convince people of the real truth, but then again maybe I'm wrong now...
• 

  radar

  Sleepy

  Interesting observation.

  There are some really intelligent people on this planet believing in really stupid things.
  The determining factor with upturning strongly entrenched ideas is not always therefore with the use of intelligent logic.
  (God I am begining to sound like a Dub again, I will be saying Jehovah needs to touch their heart next)

  It is how a person relates to the universe about him, that will determine his outlook and his thinking processes.

  Why do many people become Jehovah's Witnesses in the first place?
  Nice easy way of life? no, its because the vision of the world falls into the universe they wish to experience(paradise)only a little bit of logic then is needed to make the conversion.

  To overturn that world that they have surrounded themselves with therefore is alsmost impossible. its intersting how many ex JWs embrace a new vision, with regard to paradise.

  Logic therefore plays a small part and cannot be the magic bullet.
  An emotional experience can trigger a change of thought processes.

  I would like to see a serious Documentary played on national television, with regard to the truth behind the Watchtower organisation. People like Ray Franz, could have influenced so many in this regard. This could be a magic bullet, with the emotional trigger.

  Radar
• 

  anewperson

  You're wrong! People do get convinced & quit the WTS. Just because you haven't helped some quit the WTS don't ssume none of us have for we have & shall. Their biggest decreses are in lands where there is lots of informtion on them off the internet & the mail.
• 

  radar

  anewperson

  What are you on about?

  What presumes you to think this: " Just because you haven't helped some quit the WTS"?

  For a person to wonder around the internet and listen to information about the watchtower, first his perpective of his world will have already shifted slightly, the loyal witness would not entertain such "Viewing".

  Sure, as more information passes around, more people will take notice, but sleepy was talking about a magic bullet, just one shot that will change a person thinking instantly.

  Radar
• 

  sleepy

  Radar
  "I would like to see a serious Documentary played on national television, with regard to the truth behind the Watchtower organisation. People like Ray Franz, could have influenced so many in this regard. This could be a magic bullet, with the emotional trigger."

  So would I.Trouble is JW are really such a small group of people would it interest any major TV company to screen it?
  Perhaps some of us could write in to some tv companies about doing a film on witness, the otherside of the story from the EX's.I remember one on Channel 4 a few years back on witnesses.

  I think the trouble with logic is that it doesn't motivate you on it's own.
  Humans run on emotional responses . For instance we usually eat when we FEEL hungery.Not when we work out that we need food (of course people have set dinner times but this is when they know they are going to feel hungery).We desire food when our body through chemical reactions gives us a physical message in our gut.Just try getting someone who doesn't feel hungery to eat. It is a very difficult task.

  If you think about it when we have to fight emotional responses with logic it is a very difficult task.
  Emotions and feelings drive us to do things while logic helps us select the right things.

  People usually need a reason to abbadon strongly held beliefs , reasoning alone is not always enough.
• 

  teejay

  Sleepy,

  You said, "We were able at one time to believe so fully in an idea that we gave our lives to it, and now we don’t... we all at one time thought we knew it all. The meaning of life the real history of human kind why we die why there is suffering and many more of life’s mysteries were plain and simple to us... What was once so obvious was now so obviously wrong.

  I can't speak for others but the following probably applies to most, if not every single one of us who are no longer actively involved with the WTS:

  I didn't believe the theology of the Watchtower Society because I'd given it all a lot of thought and agreed with it. To the contrary, I believed it because I DIDN'T think about it but simply accepted it as truth. There's your smoking bullet... what the gb calls "independent thinking." It's a fact: Those who have (or develop) the skill will not be active Witnesses for long.

  Ten years ago when I began to research the Organization, I came upon ugly fact after ugly fact that blasted away at the Society's sandy foundation. I felt that any of these ugly truths that I uncovered, each taken by itself, would surely convince others (as they did me) that there was at least very good reason to question whether the WTS actually had the truth as it claimed. There were outlandish Russell and Rutherford quotes; behaviors/practices once acceptable now deemed un-Christian; flip flops; deceptive and lying re-writes of its own history and books; Jimmy Swaggart; etc. Taken all together and the cumulative message they imparted was overwhelming and far beyond argument.

  Today is no different. Now, as you've mentioned, there is the pedophile and UN issues. Dateline's program is sure to be equally convincing to thinking people but then, there's the key. Any exit strategy for any who are still 'in' must involve their willingness to think. Sadly, it's the nature of cults/high control groups to strip the membership of, not only their willingness to question and think, but to foster a lack of confidence in one's own ability to do so.

  The tools for exiting the Watchtower to freedom are all here, and in abundance. You simply can't make people pick them up and put them to use.

  tj
• 

  GinnyTosken

  Sleepy,

  CPiolo posted a link to an article called "Why Bad Beliefs Don't Die" shortly before you joined the board:

  http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-11/beliefs.html

  The original thread is here:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=7798&site=3

  Here is a small quote from the article:

  First, skeptics must not expect beliefs to change simply as the result of data or assuming that people are stupid because their beliefs don't change. They must avoid becoming critical or demeaning in response to the resilience of beliefs. People are not necessarily idiots just because their beliefs don't yield to new information. Data is always necessary, but it is rarely sufficient.
  
  Second, skeptics must learn to always discuss not just the specific topic addressed by the data, but also the implications that changing the related beliefs will have for the fundamental worldview and belief system of the affected individuals. Unfortunately, addressing belief systems is a much more complicated and daunting task than simply presenting contradictory evidence. Skeptics must discuss the meaning of their data in the face of the brain's need to maintain its belief system in order to maintain a sense of wholeness, consistency, and control in life. Skeptics must become adept at discussing issues of fundamental philosophies and the existential anxiety that is stirred up any time beliefs are challenged. The task is every bit as much philosophical and psychological as it is scientific and data-based.

  I agree with you and Radar--reasoning alone is generally not enough. The hearer/reader has to be emotionally ready and courageous enough to make a huge paradigm shift.

  Ginny
• 

  Francois

  Sleepy you're right on. Especially in your second post. For most of the world, let's face it, the JWs and their beliefs and their manifest failures and their abuses, just don't loom so large as they do for those of us who may have issues with them.

  And as for the press, the JWs are just the merest blip on a very, very huge radar screen. And "blip" may be much too large a description. They're just not that important in the overall scheme of things - except to themselves. And to the people who've suffered at their hands.

  Now, if there was a huge assembly of JWs in Yankee Stadium, like there was in 1954 (was it?), and the final act in the assembly was a mass suicide via cyanide-laced Kool-Aid THEN you'd get the attention of the media. But not for long.

  As we've seen, crashing a couple of jetliners into large buildings is enough to get the media off the scent of whatever it is that's on their minds and focus it somewhere else. Remember the O.J. coverage? Remember the Gary Condit/Chandra Levin thing that was all you could read about for weeks prior to the crash? See what I mean?

  Francois
• 

  teejay

  Sleepy,

  I'm bored, nothing's on TV so I thought I'd comment on a couple of your comments...

  We desire food when our body through chemical reactions gives us a physical message in our gut. Just try getting someone who doesn't feel hungery to eat. It is a very difficult task.

  I suppose you said this to show that humans act only when there is an emotional response or need. After giving the matter more thought, you don't really believe it, do you? It's not a very good analogy.

  Using it, let me ask: Do you eat a meal only when you are hungry? Or, do you sometimes (oftentimes) eat because, well... it's TIME to eat. Do you ever realize that, even though you haven't eaten in a few hours and you're still not hungry that if you don't eat something you might suffer some ill effects? I think that's true of most people. Very often, most of us eat for the sake of eating, not to satisfy hunger. Logic/reason (the realization that we must eat to live) overcomes emotion (lack of a hunger response).

  If you think about it when we have to fight emotional responses with logic it is a very difficult task.

  Occasionally that may be true. High-strung, emotional people have a difficult time being logical. Others, those for the sake of discussion who we'll call 'normal, sometimes have a hard time being logical when our emotions are running high for some fight-or-flight situation in front of us. As a rule, however, there are too many examples to illustrate the point that emotional responses can be (and generally are) easily over-ruled by logic. That's one of the main reasons that the human species is still functioning as well as it is.

  As it applies to JWs, when it comes to them remaining loyal to the organization, neither logic nor emotion is ever the deciding factor. As I mentioned previously, it's the failure to implement logic and thinking skills that keeps them 'in.'

  People usually need a reason to abbadon strongly held beliefs , reasoning alone is not always enough.

  A statement at odds with itself. If people need a reason to abandon their beliefs, it's reason (or *A* reason) that will do it.
• 

  sleepy

  Teejay
  Thank you for your obsevations.
  "i]We desire food when our body through chemical reactions gives us a physical message in our gut. Just try getting someone who doesn't feel hungery to eat. It is a very difficult task. [/i]

  I suppose you said this to show that humans act only when there is an emotional response or need. After giving the matter more thought, you don't really believe it, do you? It's not a very good analogy."

  Actually it wasn't the point , but I should have made it clearer.
  I was showing how phyiscal urgings get us to do things.The key word was "desire" and "feel" you must have seen in my post the refrence to eating because we know we will be hungery soon this is use of logic but this logic is used mainly to prepare your meal ,the actual eating requires you to feel hungery and you body to physically readjust itself by chemical reactions to recieve food.
  If you use logic to prepear your meal when you know you need it but dont FEEL hungery most people will find it difficult to eat.
  Also it is still the knowledge of how we will feel or how it will effect us that helps motivate us to prepear a meal.This knowledge will generate an emotional response in us.
  You may not always be aware of it but often we do things because or body promps us physically.We may feel we are using logic at the time but ultimatly it is the emotions and physical responses that dominate.It makes us love people,create things , explore, work, make friends ,eat , drink ,sleep and many more things.
  When you realise that something will effect you by use of logic this in turn will often send a message to you body that produces a physical effect , raised or lowered blood pressure , tenseness irritation, calm and peace or worry, these are what usually move us to react.
  Ask yourself why do we Feel hungery, not just know we are hungery and need food.The feelings we have are used by the body to motivate us.Just like pain tells us we are injured or ill . Studies of people who don't feel pain due to defects have shown that they will accidentally cut or hurt themselves, be able to see what they have done but will not always do something about it immediately if at all but leave it for latter, while a person who feels pain will go running off straight away to do something about it.
  Often if you body desires something it is very difficult to resit fullfilling that desire.Like when you have an itch , its hard to avoid scratching it.Studies have also been done on people who have had part of there brain destroyed an now lack emotional responses.They have gone from succsessful buisness men to hermit like reclusess as they now even though still posessing logical ability , lack the desire to do anything with it.

  The point I am making is not whether humans can be logical , but whether this alone can motivate people to change strongly held belief systems.Of course we use logic over emotion alot when it comes to little things but bigger issues are harder to fight.

  As to the last sentence reason and reasoning are different things.
  A reason in this sense is a purpose or motive to do something.
  Reasoning is a way of thinging about things.