MY FIRST DOUBT

by goldensky 48 Replies latest jw friends

  • goldensky
    goldensky

    Dear all,

    I posted my first thread a few days ago and some of you asked me questions I'm more than willing to answer. But there is so much I want to say to you there's no way I can convey all the information at one sitting, so I've decided to tackle one subject at a time, both for the sake of not boring you and because I'd love to know how you feel about each individual topic. It all began when...

    I was three when my mother, a devout Catholic, began to study with the Witnesses. She immediately took me and my two older brothers to all the meetings (my sister had not been born yet)), never to miss any for the rest of my life (except three months ago when I abruptly discontinued meeting attendance).

    I embraced the truth with all my heart. My inborn spiritual need was fully satisfied with the answers given by my mother and at meetings. Back then the work was banned in Spain, and that made going to meetings even more exciting: I was ready to be taken captive, tortured and killed for the truth without even blinking my eyes. The words "eternity" and "infinite" were among my favourite for as far as I can remember, and it felt wonderful to know I would achieve the whole grasp of them in time.

    One thing troubled me though: I couldn't reconcile the concept of an all-loving God with the animal sacrifices required by Jehovah himself. Both things just couldn't live together in my little mind. Back then I was extremely sensitive to animal suffering (I didn't think of human suffering though) and every time the subject came up at meetings I felt revolted and extremely sad. My poor Mum of course could never come up with a plausible answer and I loved Jehovah so much I just learned to do my best to suppress the thought in order to calm down the hurt inside. Yes, my training in logic-killing and thought-burying had already started.

    But apart from that I had a great childhood in the midst of my spiritual brothers, until, at the age of 21... But that is another subject.

    Tell me, since I still don't understand the need for such sacrifices (why is blood needed for the redemption of sins? It reminds me too disquietlingly to blood-thirsty gods that demanded sacrifices sine qua non? Isn't it much more logical for Jehovah to have forgiven the Israelites' sins simply on the basis of their repentance?).

    And... sorry, I didn't want to get into this much, much more delicate subject today, because I know many of you cherish and value Jesus' ransom, but since it's pretty much based on the same arguments, I must confess to you that recently I found myself extrapolating this to Christ's sacrifice: why did Jesus have to die on our behalf? Isn't it the height of injustice to make an innocent man shed his blood for human transgressions? Why couldn't Jehovah just forgive us if we are repentant of voluntary sins (we can't be repentant of involuntary sins, since we can't help being born imperfect -another injustice, by the way-, so sins due to imperfection shouldn't count at all)?

    I've often heard it said at meetings that Jehovah wanted to be consequent with his own law: "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth", but that law was given at Moses' time. It hadn't yet been enforced when the prophecy at Genesis 3:15 was uttered, so Jehovah wasn't obliged to make any perfect creature die to balance the scales.

    Since the day that dawned on me I could never again make any sense of the ransom teaching. Please, please, those of you who consider it the utmost proof of Jehovah's love for mankind, don't be hurt by my words. Not long ago I felt the same way too.

    I'll appreciate your comments on that.

  • goldensky
    goldensky

    Hello, America!

    Anybody awake on the other side of the Atlantic?

    I see, you'll begin posting all sorts of interesting things when I go to sleep tonight, and I'm not going to stay awake to keep up with you. I don't love you THAT much yet. Ha, ha!

  • AwSnap
    AwSnap

    If you are recently out, might I suggest reading Ray Franz's "Crisis of Conscience" and 2 books from Steven Hassan called "Combatting Cult Mind Control" and "Releasing the Bonds"? You might really find them interesting.

  • winstonchurchill
    winstonchurchill

    I'm awake, hermana. And also stunned by the points you make.

    I started doubting the organization long ago, and those doubts have only grown and turned into certainties (and not good certainties!).

    But only recently have started to have bigger doubts, about the whole big picture. My beef is with Human suffering, although you make a great point about animal suffering.

    I've always bought into the "Porque permite Dios el sufrimiento?" explanation. But in the past few years I've grown sensitive to the issue. A girl abducted and raped 3 times a day, every day, for nine months... Thousands dying of hunger, literally fading and losing their tissue to starvation, little by little, eternal second by eternal second... I just can't take it. When I add all the human suffering (that I'm aware of), I just can't see how it is loving to let that go for thousands of year only so God can make his point in his case against Satan? Forgive me Lord, but I don't get it.

    We are told we have to see the bigger picture: that 9 months, or a few years are nothing to the eternal and almighty. But doesn't the point of view of those suffering count? It's just horrible, and yet we don't know all that's going on.

    Explanations like "All will be resurrected", "Eternal youth and health and happiness are worth this", "This is temporary", "For God 1000 years is like a day", "God knows you better and he only lets you be tested as far as you can resist"... to me all has grown hollow, and senseless. Self-serving hollow phrases.

    Believe me Goldensky, I understand you more than you think. I'm in, and don't know what to do.

  • kitten whiskers
    kitten whiskers

    I don't know. That's all I have. I hate the animal sacrifice and don't understand either. But I am grateful Christ came.

    I guess, if we can look at it differently than we did as a JW, and consider Jesus was actually God in man's form, it was the ultimate self-sacrifice. If God has come and sacrificed a part of himself, then it doesn't seem cruel to send Christ. It seems like a parent, sacrificing for our children. We do it willingly, no matter the cost to ourself! If we can see it that way, it reveals the deep love God has for us. He stepped up and it did it for us by taking something from himself. I never thought of it like this until you posted this question.

    As far as animal sacrifices...I never understood that. But it also makes me ill to see shows or read articles on how the meat on the shelf in supermarket gets there! There is so much cruelty in it's manufacturing. It sure smells good though when I pass a steakhouse and they are grilling! It makes me think of how the fat smoked and was a pleasing smell to God. I don't really understand the need, but I also know the lifestyle back then was so different than today! PETA wasn't around, although God did decree that man was to care for his domestic animals and help his neighbors animals that were in distress. Animals were highly valued...I guess it was a great donation/sacrifice of their livelyhood or family to give it to God. It sure makes it wonderful that Christ ended it. Although the sacrifice of the Lord tugs the heart and hurts worse than any animal sacrifice could hurt our heart, in my opinion.

    I hope my thoughts have helped a little. I know your post has helped me! It made me think about Christ differently and understand God a little more this morning! I hope you get more helpful comments...I'll be back to check! Keep praying and asking for the Spirit to lead you. He can take you places no other person or their ideas can go! He can make your heart understand. It takes time though. It hasn't come to me quickly. But when I get a "revelation" or new way of understanding that is different from what we were taught, it really makes sense and I can see scriptures differently. I don't tear apart each verse but am able to read it in context...which the Society claimed they did, but now I know was a lie! They twisted so many scriptures that it is shocking when you see what the bible really said!

    P.S. Get a new bible! I love, love, love the side by side translations of four different versions I bought! It was my first non-jw bible and I felt so guilty standing in the "religion" section at the book store. I was sure I would be caught and get in trouble. Silly fear of man! It was the best purchase! I love comparing how the different versions read and get a better understanding of what the origianl writings were trying to convey. It's nice to be able to compare rather than to be told what we must accept! Let your mind explore the possibilities and process all the new information!

  • goldensky
    goldensky

    Dear Winstonchurchill,

    I'd seen your two preceding posts and was about to answer them when I found you've just written again.

    First of all: muchísimas gracias por tus cariñosas palabras. ¡Me encanta que hables castellano! Tus expresiones: "¡He dicho!" y "¡Hala, maja!" no me dejan lugar a dudas en cuanto a tu procedencia española. (Sorry, guys... I couldn't resist this temptation. But I'll carry on in English, only now at half the speed). I think you are extremely open-minded being on this forum while still an active Witness and it's very, very commendable that you openly acknowledge your position as an elder in the congregation. You are very brave, very honest.

    The points you make are EXTREMELY interesting, and I was keeping that topic for another occasion, but since you've brought it up, I can't help contributing my own thoughts on that.

    Yes, the reason the brothers offer for the allowance of suffering is not only absurd, but insulting to Jehovah. What earthly parent would allow anybody to inflict if only one minute's suffering on his child only to prove how much the kid loves him or vindicate his rights? NONE OF US WOULD! There has to be another reason that has not been disclosed to us humans. Either that or God does not exist. Or he dropped us on this planet and forgot all about us. But he just can't mind more his sovereignty than our suffering... And as you say, suffering can reach extreme and spine-chilling heights in the case of thousands of humans throughtout history. Just the thought that right now a child is paralyzed looking at his father approaching him knowing what's going to happen next... I have to stop thinking because I CAN'T BEAR THE THOUGHT. And that is just one drop in the ocean of horrors some humans are capable of inflicting... And are we supposed to believe Jehovah permits that to prove His points? I prefer to think there is a cosmical reason we will learn about in our next life, if there is one (I hope, I hope, I hope, I want there to be another life!!!).

    Do you remember a few months ago the Watchtower study article about Job? When I prepared it I realized I couldn't believe one word of it. In spite of that, for my 10-year-old son's sake (I'll talk about him another day) I went through it with him in advance (we've always, always prepared for the meetings) trying to sound enthusiastic. I made a point not to let through my own feelings. At the end of our quick review (I always made it quick since he picks it up in seconds and I don't want to bore him), there was a sad look on his face and I asked him what the problem was. He says to me: "Mum, was it really necessary for poor Job to suffer like that? I mean, couldn't Jehovah have spared him that?" That's all I needed to hear! Even an innocent ten-year-old found the whole reasoning absurd! When we went to the meeting I looked round to see if any of the brothers made a strange face or something. That would have comforted me. But no. Every one gave categorical answers as if they were saying the most logical thing in the world. And I thought: "Why am I the only one who finds this impossible to believe? Are they all under general hypnosis?"

    Why would Jehovah, the Sovereign of the Universe, feel he had to give an answer to Satan? He doesn't have to prove anything to anybody, least of all to an unscrupulous (no time to look up the spelling in the dictionary) enemy. And he goes and hands Job and "by extension" all other humans into Satan's hands? And for thousands of years? Come on!

    I have to pick my kids up from school, otherwise I'd elaborate on my feelings about Abraham's story, also along the same line of thought. Another day.

    Enjoy today.

  • JWoods
    JWoods
    And... sorry, I didn't want to get into this much, much more delicate subject today, because I know many of you cherish and value Jesus' ransom, but since it's pretty much based on the same arguments,

    That was brilliant.

    Maybe the best post of the year.

    This legalistic clap-trap is something that nobody has ever been able to explain - If the creator-God was so loving and forgiving, (then why didn't he just tell Adam and Eve that they would be OK, and go back and don't play with snakes, etc.) -

    IN THE FIRST PLACE? It makes NO SENSE AT ALL.

  • behemot
    behemot

    Goldensky, on many the inconsistencies of the JWs ransom doctrine you can read this interesting essay written by Alan Feuerbacher, a former JW:

    http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/gods-justice-sin-imperfection-and.html

    As to animal sacrifices, they are very ancient rituals that turned up in almost all cultures and predate the Hebrews: in fact, you'll find them throughout early Ancient Near Eastern civilizations and they were already practiced in Canaan before the Jews "conquest", so much so that certain scholars think the liturgy and the sacrifice system set out in the Law is a "yahwization" (an adaptation to the cult of Jahweh) of a pre-existent Caananite ritual (see for instance René DUSSAUD, Les Origines cananeennes du sacrifice israélite, Paris, Presses Universitaires de France 1941).

    As a matter of fact, almost all the types of sacrifices prescribed and described in the Law ( zebah , zebah hayyamîm, šelamîm, neder, minhah, kalîl , tenuwphah ) have been found in Canaanite texts (especially from Ugarit, XIV sec. b.C.E.): see, for instance, the discussion in Patrick D. MILLER, Prayer and Sacrifice in Ugarit and Israel, in idem,Israelite Religion and Biblical Theology. Collected Essays , Sheffield, Continuum International Publishing Group 2000, pp. 84-100.

    Behemot

  • JWoods
    JWoods

    It will still make no sense, Behemot. Not in any language, nor with how many scholastic references.

    It will still make no sense.

  • Caedes
    Caedes

    Why would a god need sacrifices at all, surely a god would know what is in your heart?

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