by goldensky 48 Replies latest jw friends
The blood sacrifice requiring god is a continuation of pagan thought. In other words, it's pagan.
The idea of jesus dying for them makes a lot of guilty feeling people feel better. It helps them feel justified. It helps them feel like someone cares extremely for them. Guilt easily infects certain groups of people, the ones that are more successful, more cooperative, the ones who have a larger view of humanity. Guilt leads to all kinds of wierdness.
S
Jehovah wanted to be consequent with his own law: "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth", but that law was given at Moses' time.
"An eye for an eye ..... makes the whole world blind." -- Mohandas K Gandhi.
So many things just don't add up for me regarding the Bible, let alone any man-made religion. I think I'd rather listen to Gandhi than Jehovah.
Hi GS,
Tell me, since I still don't understand the need for such sacrifices (why is blood needed for the redemption of sins? It reminds me too disquietlingly to blood-thirsty gods that demanded sacrifices sine qua non? Isn't it much more logical for Jehovah to have forgiven the Israelites' sins simply on the basis of their repentance?).
And... sorry, I didn't want to get into this much, much more delicate subject today, because I know many of you cherish and value Jesus' ransom, but since it's pretty much based on the same arguments, I must confess to you that recently I found myself extrapolating this to Christ's sacrifice: why did Jesus have to die on our behalf?
The answers to these questions are tied with the nature of God. He is loving and just, and also holy.
Let us consider our own societies. In a loving society is there justice and hence retribution for wrongs? If someone hurts someone or steals from them, does a loving society just let it go and leave the perpetrator free to wrong someone else? No, justice is built on love and so is punishment. The goal is holiness i.e a society without wrongs but the law does not actually provide a solution.
God told us that sin leads to death Genesis 2:17 Romans 6:23 If you commit a crime you might have a fine to pay. Someone else can pay that fine. The sacrifice does the same. However, the law is not the solution to holiness Romans 3:20 but the sacrifice one for all is 1 Peter 3:18 Hebrews 10
I understand you questions and they are good ones. Hopefully these give you some type of answer but do not expect to grasp everything. We would need the attributes of God to be able to do that, but as it is we are finite.
The main question is, does your conscience ever bother you?
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
God does not want to condemn us, He loves us but He is holy and thus He provided the way to deal with the situation once for all.
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
He wants to pay our fines. Just believe and accept the free gift :) Ephesians 2:7-9
All the best,
Stephen
JWoods
That had to be the ultimate case of shunning, what JG did to Adam and Eve.
Not only did he kick them out and kill them, but is still punishing us today. Billions have died horribly because someone lost his cool and had a hissy fit.
When all he had to do was strongly admonish them and send them to there room without supper.
What a lack of love and concern for people this JG has shown!
JWoods
That had to be the ultimate case of shunning, what JG did to Adam and Eve.
Not only did he kick them out and kill them, but is still punishing us today. Billions have died horribly because someone lost his cool and had a hissy fit.
When all he had to do was strongly admonish them and send them to there room without supper.
What a lack of love and concern for people this JG has shown!
Well, at least he gave them animal skins to wear, (instead of those stupid leafs) - before making Adam till the soil with his bare hands and "greatly increasing the pain of Eve's pregnancy".
You know - I always wondered what sense that could have made to Eve if she did not even know what sex was in the garden - and for that matter, where did the animal skins come from?
Really interesting thread. My opinon, be it humble or not, the whole mess is a crock. If there is a god I don't believe he sanctioned any part of the bible. It is all just the ramblings of men.
Agreed. W.Once
Well written Golden Sky and Winston! I'm wichya. I feel that religious teachings are man's way of dealing with, well....you know.
Hola goldensky :)
You might be interested in the following thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/175312/1/Redemption-Reductions
The notion of sacrifice, especially expiatory or atoning sacrifice, was only one among the many interpretive models NT writers used as they were trying to make sense of the "mystery" constituting the core of their faith. The distinct notion of ransom (which has basically nothing to do with sacrifice) was another. Neither was originally central to early Christianity.
Maybe you might give a second thought to behemot's point about sacrifice in the Ancient world and the Near East in particular. Sacrifices (whether human or animal) to deities were definitely not an Israelite specificity. The sacrificial texts which happened to make their way into "the Bible" describe (and sometimes rationalise) them in their particular ways: when you read them you are approaching another culture which doesn't need to make sense for you.
So, maybe we should approach the expulsion from Eden/Death Sentence/Forbidden Fruit fable in the same way, Narkissos?
