by tryingtoexit 54 Replies latest jw friends
Check out The Gentile Times Reconsidered. I don't think there's much value in picking apart this other stuff, but rather it's better to refute with a much better argument.
It's still an uphill climb. Against the power of belief, the truth is helpless.
Okay and yet again, another email from my father:
"607 allows only 68 years too?
You may realize that 607 to 539 is only 68 years, not 70. This is true. However, the nations and the Jews continued to serve the King of Babylon for two more years. How? Cyrus was now the King of Babylon, and it was not until he released the Jewish exiles that the 70 years of servitude ended, as the King of Babylon was no longer in control of the Jews and placing himself equal to the Most High.
Consider how the Bible answers the following questions.
Jeremiah 25:1: The word that occurred to Jeremiah concerning all the people of Judah in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, the king of Judah, that is, the first year of Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon
25:9: “...here I am sending [in the future] and I will take [future] all the families of the north,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even sending to Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring [future] them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these nations round about; and I will devote [future] them to destruction and make them an object of astonishment and something to whistle at and places devastated to time indefinite.”
25:11: “And all this land [Judah, including its capital] must become a devastated place , an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years .”
25:10: “And I will destroy out of them the sound of exultation and the sound of rejoicing , the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride , the sound of the hand mill and the light of the lamp .”
Everyday things such as getting married, grounding grain in a hand mill, laughing, and lighting lamps were to cease in Jerusalem. Clearly this could not mean Jerusalem continues to be inhabited for 20 years during the servitude!
25:15: “For this is what Jehovah the God of Israel said to me: "Take this cup of the wine of rage out of my hand, and you must make all the nations to whom I am sending you drink it. And they must drink and shake back and forth and act like crazed men because of the sword that I am sending among them .”
25:15, 16: “...and you must make [future] all the nations to whom I am sending you drink it. And they must drink”.
25:17,18: “And I proceeded to take the cup out of the hand of Jehovah and to make all the nations drink to whom Jehovah had sent me: namely, Jerusalem and the cities of Judah and her kings , her princes, to make them a devastated place, an object of astonishment, something to whistle at and a malediction, just as at this day”.
25:19-26: “Pharaoh the king of Egypt ... the kings of the land of Uz ... Philistines and Ashkelon and Gaza and Ekron and the remnant of Ashdod ; Edom and Moab and the sons of Ammon ; and all the kings of Tyre and all the kings of Sidon and the kings of the island that is in the region of the sea ; and Dedan and Tema and Buz the kings of the Arabs and all the kings of Zimri and all the kings of Elam and all the kings of the Medes ; and all the kings of the north who are near and far away, one after the other, and all the other kingdoms of the earth that are on the surface of the ground; and the king of Sheshach himself will drink after them [Judah, and the others] .”
25:28: “Jehovah of armies has said: “You [all the nations] will drink without fail. For, look! it is upon the city upon which my name is called that I am starting off in bringing calamity , and should you yourselves in any way go free of punishment? You will not go free of punishment, for there is a sword that I am calling against all the inhabitants of the earth,” is the utterance of Jehovah of armies.”
Clearly, Jehovah is “starting off” in bringing the calamity upon the city “upon which my name is called”. Jerusalem must be destroyed first. Then, “these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years”."
He knows I love to use books and the internet when posing questions and thoughts his way, now he's trying to be like me, lol, I'm flattered, but I need to read through everything he's sending me so I can find the loop holes...
"607 allows only 68 years too?
You may realize that 607 to 539 is only 68 years, not 70. This is true. However, the nations and the Jews continued to serve the King of Babylon for two more years. How? Cyrus was now the King of Babylon, and it was not until he released the Jewish exiles that the 70 years of servitude ended, as the King of Babylon was no longer in control of the Jews and placing himself equal to the Most High.
My reply: However, in reading Jer 25 and seeing that all the nations of the world would serve babylon 70 years we see that 609BCE to 539BCE is 70 years- 609 being when Babylon came to power. There is ZERO proof Jeru served Babylon 2 yrs after 539BCE.
Consider how the Bible answers the following questions.
Jeremiah 25:1: The word that occurred to Jeremiah concerning all the people of Judah in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, the king of Judah, that is, the first year of Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon
25:9: “...here I am sending [in the future] and I will take [future] all the families of the north,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even sending to Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring [future] them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these nations round about; and I will devote [future] them to destruction and make them an object of astonishment and something to whistle at and places devastated to time indefinite.”
25:11: “And all this land [Judah, including its capital] must become a devastated place , an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years .”
25:10: “And I will destroy out of them the sound of exultation and the sound of rejoicing , the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride , the sound of the hand mill and the light of the lamp .”
Everyday things such as getting married, grounding grain in a hand mill, laughing, and lighting lamps were to cease in Jerusalem. Clearly this could not mean Jerusalem continues to be inhabited for 20 years during the servitude!
25:15: “For this is what Jehovah the God of Israel said to me: "Take this cup of the wine of rage out of my hand, and you must make all the nations to whom I am sending you drink it. And they must drink and shake back and forth and act like crazed men because of the sword that I am sending among them .”
25:15, 16: “...and you must make [future] all the nations to whom I am sending you drink it. And they must drink”.
25:17,18: “And I proceeded to take the cup out of the hand of Jehovah and to make all the nations drink to whom Jehovah had sent me: namely, Jerusalem and the cities of Judah and her kings , her princes, to make them a devastated place, an object of astonishment, something to whistle at and a malediction, just as at this day”.
25:19-26: “Pharaoh the king of Egypt ... the kings of the land of Uz ... Philistines and Ashkelon and Gaza and Ekron and the remnant of Ashdod ; Edom and Moab and the sons of Ammon ; and all the kings of Tyre and all the kings of Sidon and the kings of the island that is in the region of the sea ; and Dedan and Tema and Buz the kings of the Arabs and all the kings of Zimri and all the kings of Elam and all the kings of the Medes ; and all the kings of the north who are near and far away, one after the other, and all the other kingdoms of the earth that are on the surface of the ground; and the king of Sheshach himself will drink after them [Judah, and the others] .”
25:28: “Jehovah of armies has said: “You [all the nations] will drink without fail. For, look! it is upon the city upon which my name is called that I am starting off in bringing calamity , and should you yourselves in any way go free of punishment? You will not go free of punishment, for there is a sword that I am calling against all the inhabitants of the earth,” is the utterance of Jehovah of armies.”
Clearly, Jehovah is “starting off” in bringing the calamity upon the city “upon which my name is called”. Jerusalem must be destroyed first. Then, “these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years”."
He knows I love to use books and the internet when posing questions and thoughts his way, now he's trying to be like me, lol, I'm flattered, but I need to read through everything he's sending me so I can find the loop holes...
My reply: he went out of order with the verses but regardless...the point is the nations will serve babylon 70 yrs, then babylon will be called to account- which they were in 539BCE. It does not say Jeru would be destroyed first- it only says they would be punished, which they were as servitude began.
These websites/emails are excellent examples of a typical JW/607 apologist tactic. That tactic is to provide a particular interpretation of Bible verses and then explain how that interpretation fails unless 607 is correct. They want you to conclude that you can't believe the Bible unless you believe in 607.
Rather than try to reconcile the scriptures with the mountains of archaeological evidence favoring 587, these apologists take a hard-line fundamentalist view. Such an approach is similar to that of "young earth creationists" who say that Genesis teaches that God created the universe in six literal days. According to them, the Bible clearly describes six literal days--with "evenings' and "mornings"; thus anyone who tries to say the days not literal 24-hour days is contradicting scripture.
Now, even JWs don't follow such a literal interpretation of Genesis. Rather, they realize that there's indisputable scientific evidence that the earth is billions of years old and that there's been life of some sort for many millions of years. Thus, they take a less literal view of Genesis (arguing for a "creative day" that could be thousands or millions of years in length). Thus, they're able to attempt to rationalize science and the Bible--at least to some extent. But they're not able to rationalize archaeology and the Bible because it destroys their end-times timeline.
Sorry for the digression...So, when reading these 607 arguments, you need to keep two things in mind:
Also, note the ad hominems and general bluster of the Third Witness site (from the first post in this thread). As another poster pointed out, he's putting words in the mouths of Ray Franz and C.O. Jonsson. Always be wary of books/websites that resort to these tactics. You may even want to point this out to your dad. At the very least, it should cause you to view the content of that site with skepticism.
BILLIE!!!!
issacaustin- I'm soaking it all up, I've found some info to go along with your replies, this should be interesting when he get off work tonight, hehehe *evil laugh*
Olin Moyles Ghost- Wow, thanks! Very well said, I'm gonna have to boomark this page now, thanks again.
In line with what OMG said, these two examples really stand out:
The Bible says Jerusalem was devastated for seventy years, starting in 607 BCE.
Where does the Bible mention 607? Where does the Bible specifically and unambiguously state that Jerusalem was devastated for 70 years? In both instances, JW interpretation is presented as what the Bible explicity says.
The two most prominent apostates arguing this, Ray Franz and Karl Jonsson, sycophantically say words to this effect: “oh, if only it was a matter of believing the Bible, then we would believe in 607 too!” Oh, really?
Neither of those two gentlemen say any such thing. Both of them sincerely believe the Bible and argue that it actually harmonizes better with 587 than it does with 607. Once again the author dishonestly portrays those who have a disagreement with JW Bible interpretation as disagreeing with the Bible itself.
@tryingtoexit: Thanks; glad to help. When you present your counterpoints, be prepared to get a response like "are you just trying to prove the JWs wrong?" or "where are you getting this info?" Witnesses typically expect you to be convinced by their first argument. If you present them with a counterpoint, then you're just being argumentative, hard-headed, and not "sheep-like." So be prepared for that.
Also, if you want to read some more in-depth analysis of the 587/607 argument, check out AlanF's site: http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/part-1-summary.html.
As you've likely already figured out, the 587/607 argument can become bogged down very easily. Try to keep control of the conversation and keep the focus on facts, not emotions, motives, etc. Remember that every single reference work dates the destruction of Jerusalem to 587 and that the 587 date has just as much archaelogical support as the 539 date (which the WTS uses to arrive at 607!!). Thus, anyone who accepts 539 but rejects 587 has the burden of proof.
Finally, have you and your dad discussed the issue of whether there's a second fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy? If I was going to discuss the whole Gentile Times issue, that's the approach I would take. Basically, the whole idea of having a second fulfillment of that prophecy is a JOKE--it's not in the Bible at all...it's something that Russell borrowed from Adventist preachers of the 1800s and we're stuck with it today.
Go ahead and read Daniel chapter 4 in its entirety and tell me how in the world you could get the idea that there are two fulfillments of that prophecy! It's such a load of bunk...it's embarrassing that I ever believed this nonsense.
saving for later...
TD- Worrrd
Olin- Thanks again, yeah I'm prepared for that, I always say to myself "I am leaving the organization with science (facts) not emotions". The imperfections of man and all the other miscellaneous b/s does affect me and others, but the reason I will be leaving is based on the factual breakdown of false teachings, simple as that, preciate your assistance as always.
