will get the danile book and insight books etc but having family study with friends this week, so proberbly next week....and i'll speak to an elder too about it...let you know what happens.
For your research: Chart for 70 Years for Babylon
by Lady Liberty 26 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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bohm
AE: You got a good attitude!. I think it would be really cool if you would research these things, and explain how you view the evidence against the 587-chronology.
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Saoirse
Thank you so much Lady Liberty! I'm gonna print that out for future reference.
IA - You're right about some of the DFed being some of the worst. It's actually a DF person that was attacking me and going around telling people I was an apostate and spreading rumours about me. I feel sorry for the guy though. It must be awful to know that you're not good enough to be a good JW and survive Armageddon and yet you're still so brainwashed that you can't move on to anything else. What a miserable existence.
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jonathan dough
I wrote a detailed paper on the fallacy of the Jerusalem's 607 destruction. Rather detailed. You can add this to your research.
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jonathan dough
For those unfamiliar with the basic 607 controversy, here is a brief introduction. If you are familiar with the issues, feel free to skip to the next post.
Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 B.C.E.. Mainstream Christian theologians, archeologists and historians take the position that it was destroyed in 587 or 586 B.C.E., a view supported by the overwhelming weight of archeological and historical evidence, and an objective reading of the Bible. Jehovah’s Witnesses reject this archeological and historical evidence because it does not harmonize with their religious beliefs. Instead, they essentially confine their evidence to their interpretation of Scripture. Accordingly, this paper confines itself primarily to Scriptural interpretation, and logic, to prove that Jerusalem was not, and could not have been, destroyed in 607 B.C.E., but was destroyed in either 587 or 586 B.C.E., a view which harmonizes with substantial and persuasive archeological and historical facts.
The year 607 B.C.E. plays a crucial role in the religious tenets of Jehovah’s Witnesses. In accordance with their interpretation of Scripture, 607 B.C.E. is fundamental, a watershed which serves as a foundation for their faith and philosophy. Based upon mathematical calculations derived primarily from the book of Daniel, Jehovah’s Witnesses count forward 2,520 years from the fall of 607 B.C.E. to arrive at the fall of 1914 - the onslaught of World War I and the year in which they believe the End Times commenced. 1914 is also believed to be the year Jesus Christ was enthroned in heaven as ruling king of the Kingdom of God. While this all might have happened in 1914, this author passes no judgment in that regard and is primarily concerned with whether Jerusalem actually was destroyed in 607 B.C.E..
With respect to 1914, Jehovah’s Witnesses regard this year, and the method by which they arrive there, as prophecy. If, however, Jerusalem fell in 587/6 B.C.E. their prophetic date is off by twenty years, and false, and would cause other critical dates in their belief structure to fail. Jehovah's Witnesses regard this enthronement of Christ to be the long awaited Second Coming of Christ whereas mainstream Christians believe it lies in the future as heralded at Matthew 24:30-31 and Mark 13:24-32. The fact that Jehovah’s Witnesses believe the Second Coming has already occurred is cause for serious reflection.
B. Historical Overview
For those unfamiliar with the issues, a very brief historical overview is in order. We are basically dealing with events that span roughly 125 years, from 625 B.C.E. to 500 B.C.E.. It includes the end or fall of the Assyrian Empire to Babylon in 609 B.C.E. followed by the rise and subsequent end, or fall, of the Neo-Babylonian Empire (Babylonian Empire) which lasted seventy years, followed by the rise and early years of the combined empires of the Persians and Medes which ended Babylon’s reign in October 539 B.C.E..
We are especially concerned with the Jews of Jerusalem and Judah during this time who were caught between these rising and falling empires, particularly the seventy year period defined here as the Babylonian Empire. These Jews would come to serve Babylon in various capacities, as did all the surrounding nations that fell under the dominion of the Babylonians, or Chaldeans.
There were numerous Babylonian kings during this era, beginning with Nabopolassar who presided over the final demise of Assyria in 609 B.C.E., followed by his son Nebuchadnezzar (or Nebuchadrezzar), the great warrior king who consolidated the empire through numerous military campaigns. It was Nebuchadnezzar who enslaved the Jews, forced them to become vassals, dispersed them to other nations, exiled them to Babylon and annihilated or devastated Jerusalem and Judah. The end of the Babylon Empire was presided over by Nabonidus who was then king, though his son Belshazzer was co-ruler of Babylon when the Persians and Medes conquered them in October 539 B.C.E..
Our attention is basically focused on three Jewish kings:
a) Jehoiakim - he ruled eleven years, and had been in power when Nebuchadnezzar ruled in his first year as king of Babylon. Jehoiakim became a vassal to Babylon in his eighth year, rebelled against Babylon, and depending upon which Bible one reads, and other factors, was exiled to Babylon with other Jews. 2 Kings 24:1-4.
b) Jehoiachin (also called Jeconiah) - his reign replaced Jehoiakim's but lasted only three months at which time he, and 10,000 others - all of Jerusalem - were exiled to Babylon roughly 800 miles away. 2 Kings 24:8 - 17.
c) Zedekiah - he replaced Jehoiachin, ruled eleven years, became a vassal to Babylon early on, and steadfastly rebelled against Nebuchadnezzar who then utterly destroyed Jerusalem and Judah in Zedekiah’s eleventh year and either slaughtered, dispersed or exiled the remaining Jews to Babylon. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe this destruction of Jerusalem occurred in 607 B.C.E. while everyone else for the most part agrees it occurred in 587/6 B.C.E.. See generally Jeremiah chapters 24 and 25.
After the Persians and Medes conquered Babylon in 539 B.C.E. the Jews were set free and roughly 50,000 of them returned home to Judah in the fall of 537 B.C.E..C. Overview of the Controversy
The Jehovah’s Witnesses' task of proving that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 B.C.E. and not 587/6 B.C.E. is no easy feat in light of strong archeological, historical and Scriptural evidence to the contrary. Notwithstanding this uphill battle, Jehovah’s Witnesses have gone to elaborate lengths to rationalize their position, regrettably causing a dizzying smoke-screen of complexity when the answers and issues, as will be detailed below, are relatively simple and straightforward as the Almighty intended them to be -- in order to reach as many people as possible.
At the heart of the controversy is a seventy year prophetic period of time. Jehovah’s Witnesses simply count backwards seventy years from the fall of 537 B.C.E., the year Jews returned to Judah after being exiled to Babylon, to arrive at 607 B.C.E.. Therefore, Jerusalem must have been destroyed in 607 B.C.E..
The problem is that they have completely misinterpreted and misapplied that prophecy at Jeremiah 25:11 and accompanying verses because they desperately need 607 B.C.E. in order to arrive at 1914. An abbreviated form of this seventy year prophecy, unfortunately taken out of context, and reproduced in the article Setting the Record Straight - a fierce and very comprehensive defense of the Jehovah’s Witnesses' pro-607 stance - provides:“ The word that occurred to Jeremiah . . . concerning all the people of Judah and concerning all the inhabitants of Jerusalem . . . all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”—Jeremiah 25:1a, 2, 11.
According to Setting the Record Straight this prophecy has two parts equal in length, both parts beginning and ending at exactly the same time:
A) The land of Judah, and Jerusalem, would be devastated and remain so without a single inhabitant exactly seventy years commencing with Jerusalem’s destruction and not before, and this period of devastation ended seventy years later only when the exiled Jews physically returned to their homeland Judah from Babylon in 537 B.C.E.. The opposing view is that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587/6 B.C.E. and the period of complete devastation lasted only 48 - 50 years.
B) All exiled Jews that fell within the scope of the prophecy were removed at Jerusalem’s destruction, and not before, and remained as exiles serving Babylon a full seventy years until their actual return to Judah in 537 B.C.E.. Again, the opposing view is that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587/6 B.C.E. and those exiles removed at that time to Babylon served only 48 - 50 years in captivity.
It should be pointed out that should either prong of this composite two-prong approach fail, the entire prophecy, or their version of it, fails.
As such, we are essentially dealing with two primary areas of interest related to A) when Judah’s devastation began and ended, and the extent of that devastation, and B) when servitude to the king of Babylon began and ended, what servitude meant, and to whom it applied. Setting the Record Straight frames the Jehovah’s Witnesses' position as follows:“ While some critics argue that Jeremiah 25:11 only refers to seventy years of servitude, Daniel 9:2 confirms that the prophecy also entailed seventy years of devastation for the land of Judah. Second Chronicles 36:20, 21 further shows that it was the composite effect of exiling the remaining ones who “came to be servants to [Nebuchadnezzar]” and the resulting devastation and desolation of the land of Judah that began to fulfill the prophecy concerning the seventy years.”
The Watchtower Society in its publication Let Your Kingdom Come and elsewhere confirm that the seventy year period ended only upon the Jews’ return to Judah, and not before.
"The 70 years expired when Cyrus the Great, in his first year, released the Jews and they returned to their homeland. (Chronicles 36:17 - 23)"
"The Bible prophecy does not allow for the application of the 70-year period to any time other than that between the desolation of Judah, accompanying Jerusalem's destruction, and the return of the Jewish exiles to their homeland as a result of Cyrus' decree." - Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 1, p. 463."This paper begins with an analysis of the underlying issues presented by the phrase a) “and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years” (servitude), followed by a discussion of issues pertaining to the phrase b) "all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment” (devastation).
http://www.144000.110mb.com/607/index.html
JD II
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scholar
lLady Liberty
There ae at least 5 major flaws with your chart:
1. The claimed date of 608 BCE for the beginning of the seventy years is useless becuase nothing of historical significance occurred in that year/
2. The chart omits significant events in the reign of Nebuchadnezzer.
3. Presents no precise date for the Fall of Jerusalem
4. Conceals the biblical fact of a twenty year gap bewteen NB chronology and biblical chronology
5.. The date 539 BCE ending the seventy years is impossible because the Jews were still exiled in Babylon
scholar JW
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isaacaustin
'scholar', your points are gibberish:
lLady Liberty
There ae at least 5 major flaws with your chart:
1. The claimed date of 608 BCE for the beginning of the seventy years is useless becuase nothing of historical significance occurred in that year/
Except for the babylonian Empire coming to power, overtaking the Assyrian Empire. Thus the 70 years began...
2. The chart omits significant events in the reign of Nebuchadnezzer.
Such as??
3. Presents no precise date for the Fall of Jerusalem
586/7, discrepancy over whether it was ascension or regnal dating. 607 supporters only have a precise date because they need one to arrive at Oct of 1914. Since this is only a date of academic interest, not anything else a precise date is not important.
4. Conceals the biblical fact of a twenty year gap bewteen NB chronology and biblical chronology
no 'scholar', real scholars, and even your nemesis Josephus concluded 50 years from the fall of Jeru to their release
5.. The date 539 BCE ending the seventy years is impossible because the Jews were still exiled in Babylon
No scholar, the 70 years ended with babylons fall, not Jeru's release...go re-read Jeremiah 25, 27, 29
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Lady Liberty
Scholar,
You speak in circles, hoping to confuse the readers, just like the society does. My authority is God's word, (which as you know, has been PROVEN over and over again to you by many here including myself), goes hand in hand PERFECTLY with Archeology!! You offer NO BIBLICAL PROOF, nor do you offer any ARCHEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE!
Funny how the elders that sat in our home told us, after seeing our mountain of EVIDENCE from the Bible that they finally said, "There WAS NO PROOF for 607!!"
I have shown you actual scans of the book Assyrian and Babylonian Chronology by A.K. Grayson. Written by the very person who not only does the British Museum claim to be the expert in the cuniforms that confirm the destruction of Jerusalems date, but that the society openly acknowledges in their literature that he is the expert on the dates as well!
So..that being the case, I ONCE AGAIN encourage you to check out this book by him, that the society quotes from and you will see VERY CLEARLY THE WATCHTOWER DECEPTION!!! They out and out LIE, and insert their own date of 607 when quoting from this book, and when you look at the book, the Author says he believes the destruction for Jerusalem was in 586/587!!!
The society does not expect the average person to get ahold of this book to see what they are doing!! But I posted scans here of the book as proof!! I have brought this to your attention MANY times, yet you refuse to address it!! WHY??!! We all know WHY!!! Because it is clear over the years that your goal is to confuse the reader with so much B.S. that they get confused and give up even trying to understand it!
The truth is NOT complicated! It is simple just like the above chart! There is NO WAY you can disprove that chart using the scriptures! And after all if you are a JW isn't that your whole claim?? To believe in the scriptures above all else?? If your answer is "yes", then why do you CONTINUE to ignore them???
Lady Liberty
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PSacramento
Thw WT admits that 607 BC was arrived bt working BACKWARDS from 1914 and they admit that no secular evidence ( historiacla or archealogical) backs this date, on the contrary, they say that they base their view on THEIR biblical interpretations.
A bethel elder I had this discussion with sometime ago admited that only they believe this view is correct because only their translation and interpretation is the right one because it comes from God and the fact that secular evidence disproves it is just more reason to believe it.
yep, his words.