by isaacaustin 24 Replies latest jw friends
DD LOL
Sir82- those who died before armageddon can be brought back because their death covered their sin. Those who die at the big A are killed directly by 'Jehovah" so will not come back...It was a twist of their own logic to then allow members to walk into paradise never dying.
Well, lots of stuff covers sin:
Death covers sin
Bringing one over to the lord covers a "multitutde" of sins.
Having a nice car.
Well, maybe not the car one...
lol
Outlaw, The WT disfellowshipped Jesus. And as is the case with any dfed person, JW members who speak to Jesus, or pray to him are likewise dfed. JWs are not allowed to talk to Jesus. The only necessary business allowed with him is to end your prayer in his name.
I know it is long but it answers some of your questions on this matter. Skip if you are not interested.
http://www.144000.110mb.com/144000/i-4.html#V
As difficult as it might be to wrap one’s mind around, the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that resurrected mankind, roughly 20 billion, are judged based on their deeds or conduct during the thousand year reign, not this life today. For all practical purposes they are starting all over again. They reason that because man is supposedly acquitted of sin at death and that he paid for his sin with the wages of death he cannot be put on judgment for evil deeds committed in this life, only the next life during the thousand year reign. He will be judged based on his obedience to future millennial Law scrolls, divine instruction or laws and regulations (the Watchtower magazine, etc.?) which are intended to educate or enlighten him to perfection.
Both those who formerly did good things and those who formerly practiced bad things will be “judged individually according to their deeds.“ What deeds? If we were to take the view that people were going to be condemned on the basis of deeds in their past life, that would be inconsistent with Romans 6:7: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” It would also be unreasonable to resurrect people simply for them to be destroyed. So, at John 5:28, 29a, Jesus was pointing ahead to the resurrection; then, in the remainder of verse 29, he was expressing the outcome after they had been uplifted to human perfection and been put on judgment. (Reasoning, 337)
Time of the earthly resurrection. We note that this judgment is placed in the Bible in the account of events occurring during Christ's Thousand Year Reign with his associate kings and priests. These, the apostle Paul said, "will judge the world." (1Co 6:2) "The great and the small," persons from all walks of life, will be there to be judged impartially. They are "judged out of those things written in the scrolls" that will be opened then. This could not mean a record of their past lives nor a set of rules that judges them on the basis of their past lives. For since "the wages sin pays is death," these by their death have received the wages of their sin in the past. (Ro 6:7, 23) (Insight p. 788)
The contradictions between the JWs' rendering of Romans 6:7 and Romans 6:23 should have been self-evident to them. The way the Jehovah’s Witnesses use these verses they are mutually exclusive. If one is acquitted of sin he is declared not guilty and avoids punishment. As such he would not then be punished with death, the wages of sin. Furthermore, it is curious why they apply Romans 6:7 (“for he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin”) to the resurrected unrighteous when the entire paragraph and the next is directed to only the so-called 144,000 who alone are supposedly baptized into Christ’s death (Rom. 6:1-11).
That aside, the Greek word dikaioo means ‘acquittal’ (NWT) or ‘absolved’ (NAB) ‘justified’ (Green’s Literal), or primarily ‘deemed to be right’ (Vine’s, 69). But if you look closely at its use in Romans 6:7 you will notice that the Jehovah’s Witnesses have plucked it out of context and fail to understand the unambiguous meaning of Paul’s discourse. He was referring to a spiritual death to sin for the Christian believer, not the physical, mortal death of all men.
1 Consequently, what shall we say? Shall we continue in sin, that undeserved kindness may abound? 2 Never may that happen! Seeing that we died with reference to sin, how shall we keep on living any longer in it? 3 Or do YOU not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we were buried with him through our baptism into his death, in order that, just as Christ was raised up from the dead through the glory of the Father, we also should likewise walk in a newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall certainly also be [united with him in the likeness] of his resurrection; 6 because we know that our old personality was impaled with [him], that our sinful body might be made inactive, that we should no longer go on being slaves to sin. 7 For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin.
8 Moreover, if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. 9 For we know that Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is master over him no more. 10 For [the death] that he died, he died with reference to sin once for all time; but [the life] that he lives, he lives with reference to God. 11 Likewise also YOU: reckon yourselves to be dead indeed with reference to sin but living with reference to God by Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin continue to rule as king in YOUR mortal bodies that YOU should obey their desires. 13 Neither go on presenting YOUR members to sin as weapons of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, also YOUR members to God as weapons of righteousness. 14 For sin must not be master over YOU, seeing that YOU are not under law but under undeserved kindness. (Rom. 6:1-14 NWT)
Paul is defending “the gospel against the charge that it promotes moral laxity” (NAB note 6, 1-11). He refers to having ‘died to sin,’ and that those baptized were baptized into Christ’s death and buried with him. The symbolic death leads to life with Christ. And true believers must think of themselves as being dead to sin. Nothing in those verses can be interpreted to imply a physical death, or that all evil people are acquitted of their sins at death because Paul made it very clear that “…it is reserved for men to die once for all time and after this a judgment” (Heb. 9:27 NWT). The Jehovah’s Witnesses’ misinterpretation would actually encourage moral laxity.
Furthermore, Christ died only once for sin and will never again return to die for forgiveness of sin so the resurrected sinful billions could never obtain the benefit of his sacrifice which he made under the so-called expired New Covenant (Romans 6:10). Christ died once (Heb. 9:27,28).
And Hebrews 6:23 cannot mean that all men are punished with death for their sins. This too is taken out of context because Jesus said “… whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation but has passed from death to life” (John 5:24). The wages of sin, death, is not everyone’s punishment or reward.
21 What, then, was the fruit that YOU used to have at that time? Things of which YOU are now ashamed. For the end of those things is death. 22 However, now, because YOU were set free from sin but became slaves to God, YOU are having YOUR fruit in the way of holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom. 6:21-23 NWT)
The Christian path leads to eternal life even though one dies physically, with one limited exception at 1 Corinthians 15:51,52. For others there is spiritual death followed by physical death and judgment; nothing here even remotely suggests that they will not be judged on judgment day for deeds committed in this life.
Fourth, Paul stated that man is judged on the basis of deeds committed while in the present physical body, not the resurrected body of the next age.
We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight ... we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. (2 Cor 5:6-10, NAB)
Since we are all judged for evil committed, Paul was speaking not only to the 144,000 as the Jehovah's Witnesses routinely claim, but to all men (the implications of this are enourmous because first century Christians were therefore comprised not only of the 144,000 and the New Testament was not directed in most instances to only the 144,000). Of course, the Jehovah's Witnesses teach that since Paul's words here refer only to the anointed, it still allows for resurrected man to be judged for deeds committed in the next physical body. But if that is the case, not only are some of the 144,000 committing evil deeds, the 144,000 anointed are judged like the rest of us. And since some of the 144,000 are evil-doers because they don't live up to their own high ethical standards they can't be part of the 144,000. Therefore it is impossible to use that number as a benchmark for counting down to the end times, for identifying who of the anointed remain on earth. No one knows who they are until they have been sifted through the judgment process.
JD II
It is all a scam. We are supposed to double pay for everything--Jesus offered up the "perfect sacrifice, to which nothing ever need be added". Yet, we are still supposed to sacrifice ourselves and offer up other sacrifices. Now, if Jesus paid for our sins, why in hell are we supposed to pay for them again--unless God is using our "sins" (which are nothing more than our natural instincts, dirtified) to extort concessions out of us and prevent us from making real progress?
Thanks J Dough for posting that.
Ok, since it is appropriate for this thread, My Mom gave me the latest WT yesterday, the one with the 6 myths of Christianity:
Immortal soul, hellfire (torment), trinity, Mary the mother of God, Idolatry and I can't think of the last one...anyways....
Is the Soul immortal or does it have POTENTIAL to be immortal?
The WT application of this passage is certainly out of context, but the notion that Jesus' death pays for anybody's sins is equally irrelevant. Here Jesus' death is neither described as a sacrifice (whether of propitiation or expiation or atonement) nor as a ransom; it is not substitutive of any crime or punishment. It is described as the way out of the rule of sin. Inasmuch as Christians identify to Jesus' death through baptism (they make his death theirs)they escape the rule of sin and share in his new life -- that of resurrection. The argument in v. 7 "for whoever has died is freed (= "justified") from sin" has nothing to do with final divine judgement. It is a most general legal rule: the action against any offence is extinct when the guilty party dies. So inasmuch as baptism means the believer's death along with Christ's, s/he is legally over with the whole rule and logic of sin (and law).
