I remember thinking 'why would I want anyone to change from being in the world to a JW?'

by jambon1 41 Replies latest jw friends

  • daniel-p
    daniel-p

    4. I have no problem saying "I don't know", which is more than I can say for many ex-JW's.

    Well, then why do you put down my admission of always looking for meaning? Isn't that being hypocritical?

    There are some answers, when questioned, can make you look like a fool.

    So here is where your preference lies: not looking foolish. I'd rather look like a fool looking for answers than sit back and be fed lies.

    Now, from my lurking for a few years, I've noticed that you, daniel-p, like to challenge people on their beliefs, but YOU do not like to be challenged.

    Maybe a sign of extreme insecurity?

    Or maybe a sign of that word you like to throw around, cowardice?

    Actually, I LOVE to be challenged. In fact, that's why I'm replying to you and carrying on this conversation. I love to be challenged, because that is where I can change and when I can become great. It's the people who sit back, comfortable with their beliefs borrowed from other men's fantasies, deriding those who confront doubt and swallow fear of the unknown and unknowable, who I despise. People who cannot challenge themselves or be challenged by others. If we can't challenge our own beliefs, if we can't face doubt, of what value is our mind and willpower? Nothing.

    Jehovah's Witnesses cannot even approach intellectual honesty. They can't even look themselves in the mirror when their consciences prick them gently, for fear of the cosmic void that is God and their own souls. Some of those who have left may have replaced what they knew of God with an equally arcane pantheon of beliefs, but at least they have achieved the authenticity of their soul, which is an impossible state among Jehovah's Witnesses. However, there are many more who have acquired, yes, the courage to make their life a monument to the mutability of meaning, while never turning back.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    I also questioned my efforts at getting people to become jw. Sure, i wanted to save their lives from armageddon. But, because of my serious depression, and i didn't believe it was ligitimate to try to get people to be like me. In other words, i was NOT an example.

    AE said

    'it get harder and harder the closer to the end we get'

    The world isn't getting worse. It has always had its problems. Generally, it is getting better for more people than it ever was - less starvation, less suffering, less war, better health generally, etc. So, what is making it feel harder for you? Is it that you are starting to see more things inside the org? Is it your lifeharder, generaly? Life inside the wt org SHOULD be continuously getting better, as it's light keeps getting brighter and brighter. The wt armageddon is NOT going to happen. The world will continue moving forward, eventually, without us, when we die.

    Even w my depresion, i did have some good times in the wt. I miss the comraderie. I have had it sometimes since leaving, as well. Not the closeness, though. I have read that close knitness can only be found within cults, or when people go through extreme experiences together, like soldiers in combat, wilderness survival, and stuff like that. Funny, how all those close jw friends i supposedly had turned everything off, like closing a water valve, the instant that they heard that i was dffed, no phone calls, no inquiries, no nothing. I'm not complaining, as i knew that that would happen. I'm making an observation.

    S

  • Judge Dread
    Judge Dread

    daniel-p,

    I'm putting YOU down? You are the one who is constantly putting down others (YOU call it "challenging others"). Their intelligence, their beliefs, their motivations. You seem to know more about them from the limited knowledge than posts on a board like this can provide.

    You say my preference is "not looking foolish". How did you reach that conclusion? From ONE statement. How do you know, from that one statement. what my preferences are? If I was interested in "not looking foolish", then I wouldn't be here, on this board.

    So then your preferences are 'not being put down' and 'becoming great', is that correct?

    Now, here is something I want to reiterate: From being on boards like this, and my own personal experience, those who leave the JW's do NOT examine their current beliefs with the SAME CRITICAL EYES.

    Judge Dread

  • daniel-p
    daniel-p

    I'm putting YOU down? You are the one who is constantly putting down others (YOU call it "challenging others"). Their intelligence, their beliefs, their motivations. You seem to know more about them from the limited knowledge than posts on a board like this can provide.

    You say my preference is "not looking foolish". How did you reach that conclusion? From ONE statement. How do you know, from that one statement. what my preferences are? If I was interested in "not looking foolish", then I wouldn't be here, on this board.

    So then your preferences are 'not being put down' and 'becoming great', is that correct?

    Now, here is something I want to reiterate: From being on boards like this, and my own personal experience, those who leave the JW's do NOT examine their current beliefs with the SAME CRITICAL EYES.

    I want to be challenged because I have learned that it's too easy to avoid inner conflict and avoid coming to "know theyself."

    Now, why can't we talk about the actual issues here, those which you ignore:

    I don't see how most ex-JWs don't gain a better sense of spiritual clarity. While you repeat that "those who leave do not examine their current beliefs with the same critical eyes," I just don't see this in most cases.

    I think this is because most of us, at some point, decided that this religion is corrupt at the highest levels and is led by false prophets, and that we would never turn back. So while we may look ahead, we're not going to waste time look back at the things behind, because we've already settled our own questions.

    Now, before I spend anymore time dicking around, can I ask if you are currently a JW?

  • goldensky
    goldensky

    Judge Dread, I don't understand why you are picking on Daniel-p like that. I thoroughly enjoy his contributions on this board.

  • carla
    carla

    Naw Judge I'm not calling you a commie at all. I know from personal experience and having all the branches at my house when talking to my child that they do tell you everything up front. The problem is that they can tell you for instance that having to do the gas chamber in boot camp is terrible, awful, you might throw up, you might even cry, one can hear these things but not truly understand until you are there doing it. I know my former Marine did extensive research before signing up and this was a child who was an honor student since kindergarten! Besides the research you can do on your own how could anybody truly not know what the military is about before signing up? you truly would have to be a moron not to know or been living in a cave.

    I know millitary who couldn't wait to get out and I know others who have reenlisted. The real problem of lack of knowledge comes when civilians are involved with dispensing information for the military! That is a whole different ball game! They don't understand that in the military you are expected to have it right! lives could depend upon it or at the very least someone's health or other benefits. The civilians the military uses or government puts there (however that works?) are not held accountable like someone in the military is therefore they are 'oh well, sorry about that'. That does affect our vets and the benefits they earned or were told they earned when checking out of their branch of the military.

    Check out Margaret Singer's view on why the Marines differ from cults---

    How the United States Marine Corps Differs from Cults

    Margaret Thaler Singer, Ph.D.

    Janja Lalich, M.A.

    We suggest that you print this browser page for future reference.

    1. The Marine recruit clearly knows what the organization is that he or she is joining.... There are no secret stages such as people come upon in cults. Cult recruits often attend a cult activity, are lured into "staying for a while," and soon find that they have joined the cult for life, or as one group requires, members sign up for a "billion year contract...."

    2. The Marine recruit retains freedom of religion, politics, friends, family association, selection of spouse, and information access to television, radio, reading material, telephone, and mail.

    3. The Marine serves a term of enlistment and departs freely. The Marine can reenlist if he or she desires but is not forced to remain.

    4. Medical and dental care are available, encouraged, and permitted in the Marines. This is not true in the many cults that discourage and sometimes forbid medical care.

    5. Training and education received in the Marines are usable later in life. Cults do not necessarily train a person in anything that has any value in the greater society.

    6. In the USMC, public records are kept and are available. Cult records, if they exist, are confidential, hidden from members, and not shared.

    7. USMC Inspector General procedures protect each Marine. Nothing protects cult members.

    8. A military legal system is provided within the USMC; a Marine can also utilize off-base legal and law enforcement agencies and other representatives if needed. In cults, there is only the closed, internal system of justice, and no appeal, no recourse to outside support.

    9. Families of military personnel talk and deal directly with schools. Children may attend public or private schools. In cults, children, child rearing, and education are often controlled by the whims and idiosyncrasies of the cult leader.

    10. The USMC is not a sovereign entity above the laws of the land. Cults consider themselves above the law, with their own brand of morality and justice, accountable to no one, not even their members.

    11. A Marine gets to keep her or his pay, property owned and acquired, presents from relatives, inheritances, and so on. In many cults, members are expected to turn over to the cult all monies and worldly possessions.

    12. Rational behavior is valued in the USMC. Cults stultify members' critical thinking abilities and capacity for rational, independent thinking; normal thought processes are stifled and broken.

    13. In the USMC, suggestions and criticism can be made to leadership and upper echelons through advocated, proper channels. There are no suggestion boxes in cults. The cult is always right, and the members (and outsiders) are always wrong.

    14. Marines cannot be used for medical and psychological experiments without their informed consent. Cults essentially perform psychological experiments on their members through implementing thought-reform processes without members' knowledge or consent.

    15. Reading, education, and knowledge are encouraged and provided through such agencies as Armed Services Radio and Stars and Stripes, and through books, post libraries, and so on. If cults do any education, it is only in their own teachings. Members come to know less and less about the outside world; contact with or information about life outside the cult is sometimes openly frowned upon, if not forbidden.

    16. In the USMC, physical fitness is encouraged for all. Cults rarely encourage fitness or good health, except perhaps for members who serve as security guards or thugs.

    17. Adequate and properly balanced nourishment is provided and advocated in the USMC. Many cults encourage or require unhealthy and bizarre diets. Typically, because of intense work schedules, lack of funds, and other cult demands, members are not able to maintain healthy eating habits.

    18. Authorized review by outsiders, such as the U.S. Congress, is made of the practices of the USMC. Cults are accountable to no one and are rarely investigated, unless some gross criminal activity arouses the attention of the authorities or the public.

    19. In the USMC, the methods of instruction are military training and education, even indoctrination into the traditions of the USMC, but brainwashing, or thought reform, is not used. Cults influence members by means of a coordinated program of psychological and social influence techniques, or brainwashing.

    --adapted from Cults in Our Midst: The Hidden Menace in Our Everyday Lives, Margaret Singer and Janja Lalich, Jossey-Bass, 1995. Reprinted with authors' permission.

  • deep-blue-sea
    deep-blue-sea

    After being so disappointed because of the way my elder-during-years-husband was mistreated from the organization, I said to my JW sister: I will no more help people to study and became a JW!

    She was astonished…but in fact it is what I did!

    I continued to discuss on the Bible with an old, kind and sweet lady who accept with pleasure my calls but had promised to never became a JW, so…I started to preach….the contrary! I began to talk to her about our discoveries on the Watchtower….how happy she was we had decided to leave!!!!

    Claudia

  • dgp
    dgp

    Some people want to join the JW because witnesses appear as pure, harder working, more moral than most of us. A non-JW believes that he might have finally found someone he can really trust. Kingdom Halls are clean, and the people seem friendly. And they seem to have an answer for everything in life.

    Most of us are religious because our parents superficially taught us what we were meant to believe. This is not a real faith. It is, at best, a series of habits, such as reading the horoscope. We grow believing that our religious organization has all the truth, and we are shocked to discover that it is not so, that every religious organization has some things that just don't add up. JWs do seem to have a purpose in life. They seem to offer true friendship. So, some of us become irreligious and then these people come and offer a very tightly knit body of doctrine.

    Also, some people indeed WANT someone else to think for themselves. They want to belong to something greater, and the Witnesses seem to offer that.

    I believe that only very few would join the religion if they had all of the information. We believe you are happy people. We don't know to what extent you are controlled.

    There is a reason why I myself considered joining. That reason was, that I love someone who is in. I felt it was nice to get to know her. I found that, the more I learned about her beliefs, the more I could understand her, and her "funny" ways.

    I would like to add that it seems so sad that someone would continue to work from door to door, and to try to convert anyone, just because he can't escape the organization if he wants to still talk to his children or wife.

    The one person who IS guilty, in my eyes, is the one who continues to try to convince people of something he no longer believes, when this someone COULD leave the organization but doesn't.

  • Judge Dread
    Judge Dread

    daniel-p

    Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, BEFORE, not after, a person had considered many paths in life, they came to the conclusion that the JW's had the best path for THEM?

    Now, if ex-JW's viewed their current beliefs with the same critical eye, they would be looking for the FAULTS in their current belief system, and would leave it, because where ever there are humans involved, there are faults.

    To tell you about me, here is the short version: I am an inactive J.W. There are things that occur in life that are unexpected and unplanned for. Those are the things lead to my inactivity.

    Let the assaults begin.

    Judge Dread

  • garyneal
    garyneal
    daniel-p says:
    At that point, what do you have? What are you? How much is life worth, when you've given up your ability to think for yourself?

    In other words, "The unexamined life is not worth living." (Socrates) I certainly agree with that. He too was put to trial for heresy because he challenged his students to critically examine theie accepted beliefs.

    jambon1:
    Perhaps you can share with us some insite concerning the unhappiness you experienced in the organization? You may have touched on it when you responded to Angel Eyes remarks concerning the weeds in the wheat. One thing I cannot stand is the remarks given by "religious" people who are quick to label critical examination of religious beliefs as "falling in line with Satan." I get accused of it too, especially when my wife tells me that I try to "discount the Bible" or when I try to "disprove God." Personally, I think she is torn but is too afraid to even challenge her beliefs. I was very comfortable with mine until I began to let that WT dogma sink in my head. Now, I find myself troubled at times in spite of the fact that I never joined up with the organization. I find myself not knowing what to believe from time to time.

    In a way, I envy people like Angel Eyes who are happy drinking the WT Kool-aid. Life is so simple for them for they never have to think for themselves. The Watchtower has it all figured out for them and if they have a question that needs an answer, rather than looking inside themselves, reasoning, and in my case, praying to God and looking for Him to make a way, all people like Angel Eyes has to do is look it up in a Watchtower somewhere. For people like her, the Governing Body has all the answers, one just has to look.

    I liken who she is to who I was back when I first became a Christian and started attending a fundamentalist church. The preacher would preach with authority about politics, current events, how to dress, how to worship, how to please God, what to listen to, how to view the holidays, etc, etc, etc.. I liked it at first, as I was certainly seeking answers in life. But eventually, he began to sound ridiculous and at times I caught him contradicting himself. Eventually, some of his preachings began to make me feel like he was speaking directly against me. I was living at home at the time and I was 21 and I even recall him preaching from the pulpit how people over 18 need to be moving out of their parent's home. To say I was depressed over it was an understatement. I eventually left.

    But, lo an behold, I found myself latching onto another blowhard who had 'all of the answers' except he wasn't a preacher. He was Rush Limbaugh and at the time I thought of myself as a raving dittohead who looked forward to watching his late night TV show (remember that show). When it got cancelled, I would listen to his radio program almost religiously. When a friend of mine (who happened to be a Witness at the time) said that she thinks I considered it my "little church." She was pretty much right though I did not really see it clearly at the time. In fact, the blowhard preacher at the fundamentalist church looked a little like Rush (and certainly was as no nonsense like Rush) and when I did visit the church, I could not help but to call the pastor to myself Pastor Limbaugh. I know, it is hillarious now but I guess that was how drawn I was to people who had such authority in their speach. Well, around 1998 (after I have been in college for 5 years) and started to think for myself, Rush Limbaugh began sounding very ridiculous to me also. Bill Clinton this, Bill Clinton that, etc, etc..

    So I guess in short, I think people are drawn to the WTBTS because of the fact that they seem to "speak" with authority about issues that have no easy answers. People are looking for answers to questions that have no real easy answers. I can certainly see how someone like Rutherford (another blowhard) could amass a following. People like that always have a demon or multiple demons (Rush's demon was Clinton and the liberals, the Pastor's demons were gays, Santa, Xmas because it was suppose to be Christmas, Procter and Gamble, the government, Clinton, televangelists, and liberal preachers). Of course, Rutherford's demons became the WT's demons.

    To a thinking individual, these blowhards begin to sound ridiculous and will eventually contradict themselves. To a thinking individual, their diehard followers also sound ridiculous and very child like.

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