Bible students .. please explain Exodus4

by unclebruce 16 Replies latest jw friends

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  unclebruce

  G'day bible Students,

  This is something i raised a while back and recieved little responce. I have long contended that the "Most High" of Exodus 4 is non other that Jethro the "Most High priest of Midian". The scriptures say Moses did everthing Jethro instructed him and reading the following text with that in mind it becomes quite clear that Moses was under the command of his powerful father in law. I say Moses 'Lord' was Jethro. Did Jethro run his smelting plant/idol making enterprise on the heights of MtSinai causing the mountain to rumble smoke and quake? Was 'God's rod' also Jethros or was Moses gifted with the walking stick of the creator herself?

  Exodus 4:18 And Moses went and returned to Jethro his father in law, and said unto him, Let me go, I pray thee, and return unto my brethren which are in Egypt, and see whether they be yet alive. And Jethro said to Moses, Go in peace.

  Exodus 4:19 And the LORD said unto Moses in Midian, Go, return into Egypt: for all the men are dead which sought thy life.

  Exodus 4:20 And Moses took his wife and his sons, and set them upon an ass, and he returned to the land of Egypt: and Moses took the rod of God in his hand.

  Exodus 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

  Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

  Exodus 4:23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

  Exodus 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.

  Exodus 4:25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.

  Exodus 4:26 So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

  Exodus 4:27 And the LORD said to Aaron, Go into the wilderness to meet Moses. And he went, and met him in the mount of God, and kissed him.

  Exodus 4:28 And Moses told Aaron all the words of the LORD who had sent him, and all the signs which he had commanded him.
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  AGuest

  Dearest Unk... peace to you!

  Although I am not a "Bible student", I WAS intrigued by the fact that YOU had a question. Therefore, may I respond? Thank you...

  You see, dear one, the Midianites were direct relatives of the Israelites; thus, the Most High God and Holy One of Israel was also their God. Few recognize this, though. And since Jethro was a 'high priest', much like Aaron was a 'high priest', it would not be unusual for one to inquire of him as to JAH's will.

  However, the REAL reason Moses inquired of Jethro was simply that fact that Jethro was his father-in-law, and Moses was gonna be taking his (Jethro's) daughter, Zipporah, and her children... BOYS (and thus progeny)... BACK to the land of his (Moses) enemies. Being the 'patriarch' of the family, a man who was about the risk the life of such progeny would at least want to EXPLAIN the risk... and get some kind of 'blessing', before proceeding... just out of kind consideration, if not familial 'head' respect. Wouldn't you agree?

  The 'familial' relationship between the Israelites and Midianites is that the Israelites descended from Jacob (Israel), the son of Isaac... the son of Abraham by his wife, Sarah. The Midianites ALSO descended from Abraham, from his wife, Keturah, who bore him sons Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah. Since Sarah had died, Keturah was also a 'free' wife, unlike Ishmael's mother, Hagar, who was a slave. Thus, both the Midianites AND the Israelites worshipped the God of Abraham: my Father, the Holy One of Israel... JAH OF ARMIES.

  I hope this helps resolve your confusion, and again, I bid you peace...

  YOUR 'servant/friend', and a slave of Christ,

  SJ
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  dungbeetle

  I agree with Aguest, that Jethro was Moses' 'Lord' in both ways; as a leader of his people with whom Moses took refuge as the Egyptians had a warrant out for him (Moses)and also as his father-in-law.

  In spite of the fact that Jethro was a distant relative of Moses, and a descendant of Abraham, it nowhere says that jethro was a worshipper of the true God. In fact. later, when Moses was reunited with Aaron and Miriam, they complained that Moses had come back with a 'foreign' wife. (it is inferred here that they are discussing Zipporah, but the account seems obscure on the point to me.)Not to mention that, even though it appears that Zipporah set out with Moses and their children to return to Egypt, there was some kind of big falling out, with Zipporah chopping off her child's (only one of the two) foreskin and throwing it at the feet of SOMEBODY and making (twice)the 'bridegroom of blood' statement.

  Just as it was recently brought out that although Abraham took his aged father with him when he set out from Ur to go a'wanderin', nowhere does it state that Abraham's father worshipped the true God.

  It also doesn't state anywhere that Noah's wife, daughters and son-in-law worshipped Jehovah. Nor Lot's wife and daughters. And on and on.

  Family, even 'unbelieving' family, is a lot more important to Jehovah than the Watchtower would have you believe.

  You see why I like the Bible so much. These dysfunctional Biblical characters make ME feel NORMAL!!!

  BITE ME, WATCHTOWER!!!
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  AGuest

  Hello, dearest 'Dung... and peace to you, my beloved one!

  May I respond to what you have posted? Thank you!

  Actually, all of those you spoke of, Jethro, Zipporah, Lot's wife and daughters, Noah's wife and sons, etc., served the True God, JAH. Simply because Aaron and Miriam had a problem with Zipporah did not mean JAH had a problem; in fact, it was Zipporah who had her sons circumcised, when, in fact, Moses SHOULD have done so. And it was Aaron and Miriam who should have told him of it. He didn't, though, due to being raised in the house of Pharaoh and not with the Israelites. But... he learned... and it was Zipporah who taught him the 'right' way. That is why Aaron and Miriam 'erred' in their mutiny against Moses in this... and received JAH's disapproval.

  Abraham had only one God, our Father, JAH OF ARMIES. Thus, his 'seed', including Ishmael, Isaac AND Midian... only had one God. Initially. In fact, even today, Muslisms, the descendants of Ishmael (Islam) serve that same God, the God of Abraham. However, they have forgotten His TRUE name, which has been oscured from them, due to THEIR lack of 'love': they serve "Allah", which, in truth, is a misrendering of the phrase "AlleluJah"... Alllelujah.

  Because they harbor SO much animosity... as Ishmael (Islam), Esau (Edom), Ammon (Ammonites) and Moab (Moabites) always HAVE... against their brother, Isaac (Israel)... they have not 'embraced' the Christ. Thus, they, as a result, do not 'know'... Christ... in that they do not 'know' love. They have ALWAYS waged war with their enemies, whom they assume to also be enemies of God... rather than do what the God of Abraham TOLD them to do, which is LOVE their enemies.

  We do not HAVE to have everything 'written' to us, do we, to know and understand God? Cannot we not just simply do what our Lord has admonished us to do, at John 5:39, 40, where he is recorded to have said:

  "You search the scriptures because you think
  that by means of them you will have everlasting
  life. And these are the very ones that bear
  witness to me, and yet, you do not want to come
  ... TO ME... that you might have life."

  Indeed, all the things that our Lord would tell us is written... somewhere. And since all of the 'scriptures' are NOT contained in the Bible, how do we KNOW that there is nothing written to say who the God of the Midianites were? However, not all that is 'written' is what our Lord would tell us. For the 'false stylus' of the scribes, and the 'mind' of men... has decided FOR us... what should and should not be included in the Bible canon.

  Therefore, it behooves US... NOT to put our trust in earthling man... but to listen to the One who speaks to US... from the heavens. For as it is recorded in Proverbs... all the sayings of HIS mouth are in righteousness... among them there is NOTHING twisted or crooked. ALL of them are straight to the DISCERNING one, and upright to those finding knowledge.

  Proverbs 8:8, 10
  1 Corinthians 12:10

  So, just because a detail is NOT 'written' does not mean we cannot know the TRUTH of the matter, right? For God has given us One to speak TO us... the TRUTH, who speaks by means of the SPIRIT of the Truth... which will teach us ALL things. Yes?

  But you are quite correct in your assessment of the 'value' of unbelieving family. JAH will receive ANY... who are not 'opposed'.

  May the undeserved kindness and mercy of our God and Father, JAH OF ARMIES, and the peace of His Son and Christ, our Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, be upon you, to time indefinite.

  YOUR servant, sister and fellow slave of Christ,

  SJ
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  hungerartist

  Interesting thread....

  I would only like to add that there is some proof that other people worshipped 'Jehovah'. (So in the unified 'nation of Israel' was less a reality than the bible would have you believe.)

  In fact, the divine name 'Jehovah' apparently was derived from a compound name 'Yahweh-Y'arme'el', or something similar. What makes this interesting is that 'Y'arme'el' probably gave rise to 'Ba'al'!

  So did the other tribes worship a 'different' God? Not exactly. They just worshipped differently. Not an excuse to 'wipe them off the face of the earth', that's for sure.

  I read this stuff in a very old book called The Two Religions of Israel. (which I found at my JW parents' house, of all places. they should read books they keep on the shelves, eh? very skeptical info there!)

  If anyone's interested in finding this book or obtaining some interesting quotes, let me know by replying to this post. Or even send an e-mail if you must.

  I hunger for truth

  "Every revolution evaporates and leaves only the slime of a new bureaucracy" ~ Franz Kafka
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  D wiltshire

  You Gals are doing all right, don't need my help.

  If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
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  unclebruce

  Sorry Shelby,

  You completely missed my point. I am fully aware of the origins of the ancients and the 'biblical' decendants of Abraham. I've posted long on that very thing and more widly than you have here. (witnesses aren't taught that the Canaanites and Israelites returning from Egypt were the same gene pool separated by 400 or so years or that Abraham was no small wandering herdsman, having ancient cities named after himself and his immediate forebears)

  My question related to Jethro actually being the "Most High" who sent Moses to liase with Pharoh from his kingdom at the eastern end of the Egyptian empire.

  I say it was Jethro's outrage by Moses refusal to circumsize his son that is the basis for the cultural fit of pique dampened by ziphoras knife. Shock horror .. I be suggesting that the Most High power behind Moses is none other than Jethro!

  cheers, unclebruce
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  unclebruce

  G'day Hungerartist,

  Thankyou for your post. "The Two Religions of Israel" sounds great. Have you any more information about it? (like the ISBN?) The battles between the followers of Baal and YHWH have always fascinated me as has the true history of Abraham and his lineage.

  Is the RA theory true? The Sumnerian Abraham, The Indian Braman, the great Egyptian sun god Ra etc... all being a common ancient root/title of the masculine God of fertility?

  cheers, unclebruce
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  unclebruce

  Thanks Dungbeetle,

  You give a clearsighted presentation of the given information in the text. I am not totally convinced Jethro is the God of Exodus but it just seems the easiest most likely explaination to me. It's just a hypothetical that niggles at me, i have never seen this discussed anywhere but am putting it out there as a topic for debate.

  uncle ocums razor ;)
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  hungerartist

  Hey Unclebruce,

  I don't know about the Egyptian connection. Something about that fascinates me as well; I have read for example that the Egyptians practiced circumcision. I don't know how well documented this is. A little research would be fun.

  Yes, now, about the book. An ISBN was impossibile to find on the book itself. (the book was written in 1911; probably no such thing back then) So I looked it up over a library system. No luck with the ISBN, but...

  ...anyhow, the other pertinent information:

  Author: Cheyne, T. K. (Thomas Kelly), 1841-1915
  Title: The two religions of Israel; with a re-examination of the prophetic narratives and utterances. By the Rev. T. K. Cheyne.
  Publisher: London, A. and C. Black, 1911.
  Description: xv, 428 p. 23 cm.
  Notes: "Abbreviations": p. xv.
  Language: English
  Subjects: Bible.--O.T.--Prophets--Criticism, interpretation, etc..
  Judaism
  Prophets

  So far I have only read some of this book. The copy I have is most likely the first edition; it's pages are so fragile that it's hard to handle.

  The overall point of the book seems to be that the strongest influence on Israelite religion was from Northern Arabia, not Assyria, Babylonia (Ur), or Egypt. If I find the time I'd like to run a references search on this and see what is the modern concensus. It's hard to separate what might be pure speculation.

  cheers!

  hungry mummy

  "Every revolution evaporates and leaves only the slime of a new bureaucracy" ~ Franz Kafka